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Forums - General Discussion - "Leaving Neverland": Do you think Michael Jackson is Innocent?

 

Thriller and Invincible or Bad and Dangerous

Good guy, wrongly accused 55 51.89%
 
Talented Bad guy 28 26.42%
 
A little of both. 23 21.70%
 
Total:106

I think Jackson was an incredible artist and talent and I am a big fan of his music, unfortunately at this point after researching a lot of things, I have to lean towards him being guilty. Just for me a few things beyond just this documentary.

1.) In the late 70s when Jackson was about 21 he had a British boy who was about 13 reached out to him and want to interview him. They exchanged phones numbers and would chat on the phone a lot. After a few weeks of this, Jackson brought up masturbation and told the kid if was masturbating right at that moment. The kid didn't react well to this and according to him Jackson called later to apologize. This boy (now grown adult in his 40s) has never asked for money and has no reason to lie. I don't remember the part in Peter Pan where Peter has a masturbation conversation with the Lost Boys.

2.) According to Jackson's own driver, Jackson slept at Jordy Chandler's home (the 1st accuser in 1993) *thirty nights* in a row, and he would sleep in Jordy's bed with him. When they went to hotels they would also sleep together while Jordy's mother and sister slept in a separate room. This is a repeated pattern with him where he chooses a boy, then befriends the family, then a few innocent sleepovers happen, the parents protest when the kid first sleeps over in his bed, he then asks if they love him, etc. etc. Gradually the kid will start sleeping with Jackson unsupervised, and Jackson buys the mother or parents a gift/trips/in some cases a house mortgage. This happened multiple times to multiple families with a young boy in the same pattern.

3.) There's also a pattern of him having new "boy companion" every few years and then basically dumping them the moment they turn 15/16 (hit puberty). And it's never a fat, ugly kid either.

4.) He seemed to have zero interest in women. By all accounts Brooke Shields, who was considered one of the hottest young women of the time wanted a relationship with him and according to her it was always strictly platonic (even more bizarrely she was his date to the Grammys in the 80s, but he also took along child star Emmaneul Lewis). Tatum O'Neal, another sexy actress by his own admission basically jumped him for sex and he ran out of there. Tatiana Thumbzen, the gorgeous model who was in the "Way You Make Me Feel" video was in love with Jackson and was even pushed by Jackson's mom to make a move on him, when she kissed him during a concert performance, she was immediately fired the next day. According to his second wife, Debbie Rowe, they never had sex, she was artificially insemeinated and that was that. If he was gay, ok fine, but there's even less evidence of any romantic relationships he had with grown men either. 

That and just too many other red flags here. If he was really interested in reliving his childhood, having birthday parties, water fights, playing Peter Pan, etc. why not do it for 4-7 hours a day under parental supervision and leave the sleeping with children part out of it? Especially when it caused massive damage to his career in 1993? The only reason to continue that behavior is if he needed to have those sleepovers for another reason. I'd like to be wrong on this, but I hate to say it, I don't think I'm wrong.



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Soundwave said:

I think Jackson was an incredible artist and talent and I am a big fan of his music, unfortunately at this point after researching a lot of things, I have to lean towards him being guilty. Just for me a few things beyond just this documentary.

1.) In the late 70s when Jackson was about 21 he had a British boy who was about 13 reached out to him and want to interview him. They exchanged phones numbers and would chat on the phone a lot. After a few weeks of this, Jackson brought up masturbation and told the kid if was masturbating right at that moment. The kid didn't react well to this and according to him Jackson called later to apologize. This boy (now grown adult in his 40s) has never asked for money and has no reason to lie. I don't remember the part in Peter Pan where Peter has a masturbation conversation with the Lost Boys.

2.) According to Jackson's own driver, Jackson slept at Jordy Chandler's home (the 1st accuser in 1993) *thirty nights* in a row, and he would sleep in Jordy's bed with him. When they went to hotels they would also sleep together while Jordy's mother and sister slept in a separate room. This is a repeated pattern with him where he chooses a boy, then befriends the family, then a few innocent sleepovers happen, the parents protest when the kid first sleeps over in his bed, he then asks if they love him, etc. etc. Gradually the kid will start sleeping with Jackson unsupervised, and Jackson buys the mother or parents a gift/trips/in some cases a house mortgage. This happened multiple times to multiple families with a young boy in the same pattern.

3.) There's also a pattern of him having new "boy companion" every few years and then basically dumping them the moment they turn 15/16 (hit puberty). And it's never a fat, ugly kid either.

4.) He seemed to have zero interest in women. By all accounts Brooke Shields, who was considered one of the hottest young women of the time wanted a relationship with him and according to her it was always strictly platonic (even more bizarrely she was his date to the Grammys in the 80s, but he also took along child star Emmaneul Lewis). Tatum O'Neal, another sexy actress by his own admission basically jumped him for sex and he ran out of there. Tatiana Thumbzen, the gorgeous model who was in the "Way You Make Me Feel" video was in love with Jackson and was even pushed by Jackson's mom to make a move on him, when she kissed him during a concert performance, she was immediately fired the next day. According to his second wife, Debbie Rowe, they never had sex, she was artificially insemeinated and that was that. If he was gay, ok fine, but there's even less evidence of any romantic relationships he had with grown men either. 

That and just too many other red flags here. If he was really interested in reliving his childhood, having birthday parties, water fights, playing Peter Pan, etc. why not do it for 4-7 hours a day under parental supervision and leave the sleeping with children part out of it? Especially when it caused massive damage to his career in 1993? The only reason to continue that behavior is if he needed to have those sleepovers for another reason. I'd like to be wrong on this, but I hate to say it, I don't think I'm wrong.

Not to mention the fact that he only "befriended" young "good looking" boys, where were the fat kids? The young girls? The ugly boys? The man had a specific type of boy that he would always "befriend".



Soundwave said:

I think Jackson was an incredible artist and talent and I am a big fan of his music, unfortunately at this point after researching a lot of things, I have to lean towards him being guilty. Just for me a few things beyond just this documentary.

1.) In the late 70s when Jackson was about 21 he had a British boy who was about 13 reached out to him and want to interview him. They exchanged phones numbers and would chat on the phone a lot. After a few weeks of this, Jackson brought up masturbation and told the kid if was masturbating right at that moment. The kid didn't react well to this and according to him Jackson called later to apologize. This boy (now grown adult in his 40s) has never asked for money and has no reason to lie. I don't remember the part in Peter Pan where Peter has a masturbation conversation with the Lost Boys.

2.) According to Jackson's own driver, Jackson slept at Jordy Chandler's home (the 1st accuser in 1993) *thirty nights* in a row, and he would sleep in Jordy's bed with him. When they went to hotels they would also sleep together while Jordy's mother and sister slept in a separate room. This is a repeated pattern with him where he chooses a boy, then befriends the family, then a few innocent sleepovers happen, the parents protest when the kid first sleeps over in his bed, he then asks if they love him, etc. etc. Gradually the kid will start sleeping with Jackson unsupervised, and Jackson buys the mother or parents a gift/trips/in some cases a house mortgage. This happened multiple times to multiple families with a young boy in the same pattern.

3.) There's also a pattern of him having new "boy companion" every few years and then basically dumping them the moment they turn 15/16 (hit puberty). And it's never a fat, ugly kid either.

4.) He seemed to have zero interest in women. By all accounts Brooke Shields, who was considered one of the hottest young women of the time wanted a relationship with him and according to her it was always strictly platonic (even more bizarrely she was his date to the Grammys in the 80s, but he also took along child star Emmaneul Lewis). Tatum O'Neal, another sexy actress by his own admission basically jumped him for sex and he ran out of there. Tatiana Thumbzen, the gorgeous model who was in the "Way You Make Me Feel" video was in love with Jackson and was even pushed by Jackson's mom to make a move on him, when she kissed him during a concert performance, she was immediately fired the next day. According to his second wife, Debbie Rowe, they never had sex, she was artificially insemeinated and that was that. If he was gay, ok fine, but there's even less evidence of any romantic relationships he had with grown men either. 

That and just too many other red flags here. If he was really interested in reliving his childhood, having birthday parties, water fights, playing Peter Pan, etc. why not do it for 4-7 hours a day under parental supervision and leave the sleeping with children part out of it? Especially when it caused massive damage to his career in 1993? The only reason to continue that behavior is if he needed to have those sleepovers for another reason. I'd like to be wrong on this, but I hate to say it, I don't think I'm wrong.

Point #2) Some of Jackson's former security guards and his former maid made similar claims. Then it was later discovered that they had agendas and had sued Michael before for wrongful termination. Michael's legal team not only took those cases to court, they won. So instead of Michael owing them money, they owed HIM money. And it was after they lost when they decided to testify against him in the 2005 trial, the same trial where he was acquitted of all charges. So take accusations and claims from for staff members of Michael with a massive grain of salt.

Regarding point #4)  So I guess we're just going to ignore his infatuation with Diana Ross? Like the time he was caught checking her out on stage at the Grammy's?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9clZ-gKckM - 0:43 mark
He had it BAD for Diana. He even stated in his 1988 autobiographic book, Moonwalker, how upset he was when he found out Diana Ross was getting married. "I wanted her to be happy, but I have to admit that I was a bit hurt and a little jealous because I've always loved Diana and always will."
He talked about Tatum O'Neal and Brooke Shields. He even addressed O'Neal as his first love - after Diana (Again, he had it BAD for Diana. You know the songs Dirty Diana and Who Is It? Written after her.)
He continued onward "There have been a lot of wonderful women in my life, women whose names wouldn't mean anything to the readers of this book, and it would be unfair to discuss them because they are not celebrites and are unaccustomed to having their names in print. I value my privacy and therefore I respect theirs as well."

Or various bodyguards' accounts of Michael making out with women in the back of a limo or recording studio? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs - 34:50 mark.

Or how about his first wife? Lisa Marie Presley, who even when they were going through a bad break-up and divorce in the late 90s and had every reason to feed him to the wolves. If there is any individual on this planet who was/is in prime and perfect position to tarnish and ruin Michael Jackson's name, it's Lisa Marie Presley. But she always defended and maintained her claim that their relationship was a normal, sexual relationship and that in their time together she never saw any signs of pedophilia. 
"If I had seen anything, believe me, his ass would have been hanging from a tree. So, I don't know, I never saw anything like that." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yTTEwBLfUQ&t=1219s - 22:18 mark.

Just because he didn't always show interest in women, doesn't mean he wasn't interested. He most certainly was. Didn't he and Madonna went to the Grammy's together too? And Madonna has her own stories about her and Michael as well.

From one MJ fan to another, I'll tell you. You're wrong.

Last edited by PAOerfulone - on 15 March 2019

omarct said:
I knew he was guilty the moment he said he slept in a room alone with these boys without any cameras and behind closed doors. Even if he was "super naive"( which I think is BS), he still has lawyers and adults around him that could tell him that he needed to have cameras and whatnot in case he ever needed prove of his innocence. He obviously didnt because he knew it was wrong and fucked up, and he was fucking these kids.

Reminds of me of when I was 15 years old and I would go to my 17y/o cousin's house during summers, we would hook up, and at night would try anything we could to sleep in the same room with excuses like we wanted to play videogames together or whatnot. I remember 1 year her mom kinda started seeing what was going on and wouldnt let us sleep in the same room together anymore. I remember her mom always praising how close and friendly we were, well it was for a reason because we had a hidden relationship, its crazy that it took her years to realize it and only because we started making it too obvious after a while.

So you jumped to that conclusion based purely on anecdotal quotes without any concrete, indisputable evidence to back it up? Yeah, seems legit.

Funny how you either didn't know or neglected to mention how Michael Jackson's room was the size of a duplex which he, unwisely, allowed entire families sleep in it, not just the kids, but their families as well including their parents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs  21:07 - 21:36 mark

So no, he didn't sleep in a room alone with boys. Macaulay Culkin has attested to this and swears to this day that Michael never did anything to him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yTTEwBLfUQ&t=1219s - 20:51 mark. 

And as for that interview documentary in 2003, the one that PREDATES the 2005 trial where Michael was acquitted and cleared of all charges in resounding, convincing fashion because the case against him was so laughably bad to the point where the prosecution was fabricating and forging their own evidence before the trial even started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs - 4:23 - 5:05 mark. Refer to my earlier comments in my original post, it showed that Michael definitely had a few screws loose and was very ignorant, but BY NO MEANS did it mean he was a pedophile. It meant he was a grown man with the mentality, naivety, and ignorance of a child because of not having the average childhood due to the demands of adult stardom in combination with abuse he suffered from his father.

And here's the difference between documentaries by the media and the judicial court system and criminal investigations by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The former is incredibly biased on the issue and tried to paint the picture to get people to fall for the narrative that he was a sexual predator so that they can sell more newspapers, make more money, and get more money out of his estate. The latter looked at every piece of evidence that was on the table from an unbiased perspective, in both the 1993 and 2003 allegations. And both times they found NO concrete, legitimate evidence whatsoever that could support the prosecution's argument that Michael Jackson molested kids.

https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson 

"all logical investigations has been conducted and no leads remain outstanding, it is recommended that this case be closed administratively." - 1993

"There are no outstanding leads or evidence items." - 2004

It's pretty damn telling that the latest accusers this time are two people who have a proven track record of lying and changing/contradicting their stories. One of whom "suddenly realized" he was molested AFTER he was rejected from working as part of the Michael Jackson "One" Cirque de soleil show in Las Vegas. 



PAOerfulone said:
Soundwave said:

I think Jackson was an incredible artist and talent and I am a big fan of his music, unfortunately at this point after researching a lot of things, I have to lean towards him being guilty. Just for me a few things beyond just this documentary.

1.) In the late 70s when Jackson was about 21 he had a British boy who was about 13 reached out to him and want to interview him. They exchanged phones numbers and would chat on the phone a lot. After a few weeks of this, Jackson brought up masturbation and told the kid if was masturbating right at that moment. The kid didn't react well to this and according to him Jackson called later to apologize. This boy (now grown adult in his 40s) has never asked for money and has no reason to lie. I don't remember the part in Peter Pan where Peter has a masturbation conversation with the Lost Boys.

2.) According to Jackson's own driver, Jackson slept at Jordy Chandler's home (the 1st accuser in 1993) *thirty nights* in a row, and he would sleep in Jordy's bed with him. When they went to hotels they would also sleep together while Jordy's mother and sister slept in a separate room. This is a repeated pattern with him where he chooses a boy, then befriends the family, then a few innocent sleepovers happen, the parents protest when the kid first sleeps over in his bed, he then asks if they love him, etc. etc. Gradually the kid will start sleeping with Jackson unsupervised, and Jackson buys the mother or parents a gift/trips/in some cases a house mortgage. This happened multiple times to multiple families with a young boy in the same pattern.

3.) There's also a pattern of him having new "boy companion" every few years and then basically dumping them the moment they turn 15/16 (hit puberty). And it's never a fat, ugly kid either.

4.) He seemed to have zero interest in women. By all accounts Brooke Shields, who was considered one of the hottest young women of the time wanted a relationship with him and according to her it was always strictly platonic (even more bizarrely she was his date to the Grammys in the 80s, but he also took along child star Emmaneul Lewis). Tatum O'Neal, another sexy actress by his own admission basically jumped him for sex and he ran out of there. Tatiana Thumbzen, the gorgeous model who was in the "Way You Make Me Feel" video was in love with Jackson and was even pushed by Jackson's mom to make a move on him, when she kissed him during a concert performance, she was immediately fired the next day. According to his second wife, Debbie Rowe, they never had sex, she was artificially insemeinated and that was that. If he was gay, ok fine, but there's even less evidence of any romantic relationships he had with grown men either. 

That and just too many other red flags here. If he was really interested in reliving his childhood, having birthday parties, water fights, playing Peter Pan, etc. why not do it for 4-7 hours a day under parental supervision and leave the sleeping with children part out of it? Especially when it caused massive damage to his career in 1993? The only reason to continue that behavior is if he needed to have those sleepovers for another reason. I'd like to be wrong on this, but I hate to say it, I don't think I'm wrong.

Point #2) Some of Jackson's former security guards and his former maid made similar claims. Then it was later discovered that they had agendas and had sued Michael before for wrongful termination. Michael's legal team not only took those cases to court, they won. So instead of Michael owing them money, they owed HIM money. And it was after they lost when they decided to testify against him in the 2005 trial, the same trial where he was acquitted of all charges. So take accusations and claims from for staff members of Michael with a massive grain of salt.

Regarding point #4)  So I guess we're just going to ignore his infatuation with Diana Ross? Like the time he was caught checking her out on stage at the Grammy's?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9clZ-gKckM - 0:43 mark
He had it BAD for Diana. He even stated in his 1988 autobiographic book, Moonwalker, how upset he was when he found out Diana Ross was getting married. "I wanted her to be happy, but I have to admit that I was a bit hurt and a little jealous because I've always loved Diana and always will."
He talked about Tatum O'Neal and Brooke Shields. He even addressed O'Neal as his first love - after Diana (Again, he had it BAD for Diana. You know the songs Dirty Diana and Who Is It? Written after her.)
He continued onward "There have been a lot of wonderful women in my life, women whose names wouldn't mean anything to the readers of this book, and it would be unfair to discuss them because they are not celebrites and are unaccustomed to having their names in print. I value my privacy and therefore I respect theirs as well."

Or various bodyguards' accounts of Michael making out with women in the back of a limo or recording studio? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs - 34:50 mark.

Or how about his first wife? Lisa Marie Presley, who even when they were going through a bad break-up and divorce in the late 90s and had every reason to feed him to the wolves. If there is any individual on this planet who was/is in prime and perfect position to tarnish and ruin Michael Jackson's name, it's Lisa Marie Presley. But she always defended and maintained her claim that their relationship was a normal, sexual relationship and that in their time together she never saw any signs of pedophilia. 
"If I had seen anything, believe me, his ass would have been hanging from a tree. So, I don't know, I never saw anything like that." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yTTEwBLfUQ&t=1219s - 22:18 mark.

Just because he didn't always show interest in women, doesn't mean he wasn't interested. He most certainly was. Didn't he and Madonna went to the Grammy's together too? And Madonna has her own stories about her and Michael as well.

From one MJ fan to another, I'll tell you. You're wrong.

The driver in the Chandler situation didn't sue for money or anything though, and the story was verified with Chandler's mother. He would come over to their house after Jordy would come home from school and he would sleep over in Jordy's bed on many occasions.

He never made a pass on Brooke Shields, Madonna, or Tatiana Thumbzen, didn't have sex with his second wife ... no hetereosexual man IMO is going to turn all of them down. 

He would walk around with a new "chosen one" male kid friend that he would take everywhere like a girlfriend, and they were never fat, ugly boys either. And then when those boys turned 15/16, his interest in them decreased massively. 

Lisa Marie Presley was married to him for like a year, she's no authority on what was happening before or after and quite frankly they weren't together that much even when they were married. Even at the time many people suspected it was a sham marriage (at least on his part, I suspect LMP was caught up into it) because it came right after the 1993 allegations that were hurting his career badly.

People don't want it to be true because they love his music so much and he's like a beloved family member that they don't even want to ponder it. 

Several of the jury members from that 2005 trail btw did say afterwards they thought he probably was molesting kids or that his relationship with kids was likely not all innocent, but they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt in the Arivzo case. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 15 March 2019

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omarct said:
Soundwave said:

I think Jackson was an incredible artist and talent and I am a big fan of his music, unfortunately at this point after researching a lot of things, I have to lean towards him being guilty. Just for me a few things beyond just this documentary.

1.) In the late 70s when Jackson was about 21 he had a British boy who was about 13 reached out to him and want to interview him. They exchanged phones numbers and would chat on the phone a lot. After a few weeks of this, Jackson brought up masturbation and told the kid if was masturbating right at that moment. The kid didn't react well to this and according to him Jackson called later to apologize. This boy (now grown adult in his 40s) has never asked for money and has no reason to lie. I don't remember the part in Peter Pan where Peter has a masturbation conversation with the Lost Boys.

2.) According to Jackson's own driver, Jackson slept at Jordy Chandler's home (the 1st accuser in 1993) *thirty nights* in a row, and he would sleep in Jordy's bed with him. When they went to hotels they would also sleep together while Jordy's mother and sister slept in a separate room. This is a repeated pattern with him where he chooses a boy, then befriends the family, then a few innocent sleepovers happen, the parents protest when the kid first sleeps over in his bed, he then asks if they love him, etc. etc. Gradually the kid will start sleeping with Jackson unsupervised, and Jackson buys the mother or parents a gift/trips/in some cases a house mortgage. This happened multiple times to multiple families with a young boy in the same pattern.

3.) There's also a pattern of him having new "boy companion" every few years and then basically dumping them the moment they turn 15/16 (hit puberty). And it's never a fat, ugly kid either.

4.) He seemed to have zero interest in women. By all accounts Brooke Shields, who was considered one of the hottest young women of the time wanted a relationship with him and according to her it was always strictly platonic (even more bizarrely she was his date to the Grammys in the 80s, but he also took along child star Emmaneul Lewis). Tatum O'Neal, another sexy actress by his own admission basically jumped him for sex and he ran out of there. Tatiana Thumbzen, the gorgeous model who was in the "Way You Make Me Feel" video was in love with Jackson and was even pushed by Jackson's mom to make a move on him, when she kissed him during a concert performance, she was immediately fired the next day. According to his second wife, Debbie Rowe, they never had sex, she was artificially insemeinated and that was that. If he was gay, ok fine, but there's even less evidence of any romantic relationships he had with grown men either. 

That and just too many other red flags here. If he was really interested in reliving his childhood, having birthday parties, water fights, playing Peter Pan, etc. why not do it for 4-7 hours a day under parental supervision and leave the sleeping with children part out of it? Especially when it caused massive damage to his career in 1993? The only reason to continue that behavior is if he needed to have those sleepovers for another reason. I'd like to be wrong on this, but I hate to say it, I don't think I'm wrong.

Not to mention the fact that he only "befriended" young "good looking" boys, where were the fat kids? The young girls? The ugly boys? The man had a specific type of boy that he would always "befriend".

I guess you never heard of Michael Jackson's friendship with Dave Dave (David Rothenberg) then plus I wouldn't call Cory Feldman that good looking either.



Chris Hu said:
omarct said:

Not to mention the fact that he only "befriended" young "good looking" boys, where were the fat kids? The young girls? The ugly boys? The man had a specific type of boy that he would always "befriend".

I guess you never heard of Michael Jackson's friendship with Dave Dave (David Rothenberg) then plus I wouldn't call Cory Feldman that good looking either.

I think he was selective in who he choose to molest. It wasn't an easy thing, in the documentary and if you look at the Chandler case as well, it involves basically having to first win over the entire family, usually specifically the mother. He would really lavish the mom in the situation and generally preferred families where the father was estranged it seemed to make a move. There's definitely a pattern there though. 



You know when you start calling the kids ugly, maybe its time to give it a rest...



Click

This really sums things up the two men have books out on the abuse they claim happened and the claims in the books differ significantly from what they said in the documentaries, Michael Jackson is just an easy target to throw allegations at but they're always just that allegations, even the FBI who have something like a 98% conviction rate couldn't find anything to put him away on either he was more untouchable than Capone and Frank Matthews combined or the allegations aren't concrete.



From all I have seem on the subject my stance is that yes he had some mental illness. But the type that he could only have a healthy relationship with kids because that is where his psique was trapped during his whole life.
So yes it is strange that he had kids with him all the time but he didn't had sex with them.

Also I would much more blame parents that would live child at his house without a care and them decades later claim he is a monster. Also take in consideration Culkin as one of his best friend and a child at the time and didn't suffer any sex attempt from MJ.



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