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Forums - Politics Discussion - How Democrats Went from Opposing Illegal Immigration to Supporting it.

Machiavellian said:
jason1637 said:

?

I support illegal immigration to some extent. Mostly giving a path to citizenship to kids brought here by their parents but at the same time we should increase border security to stop those from coming in illegally and have become stricter on those that stay here when their visa have expired. But i don't support just giving a path to citizenship to all illegal immigrants following the laws.

From your last statement how do you conclude giving amnesty as being supporting illegal immigration.  If you want to understand what the Dems support then go back to the gang of 8 from 2013 bill they tried to pass which was a bipartisan effort.  All the things you list were on that bill, increase border security, stricter enforcement on expired visas etc.  The thing is it took 10 years to become a citizen for people seeking citizenship and there were a lot of rules that had to be followed in order to make it.  There was no amnesty for all and the effort was to make it easier to find people who probably should be deported for people who are looking to become legal.  

Giving a path to citizenship to illegal immigrants is supporting them lol. You're not punishing them for their crime but instead rewarding them.



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Machiavellian said:
iron_megalith said:

Sure.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-california-expands-workplace-1507236616-htmlstory.html

Yeah, so what.  I read that link a long time ago, where does it show that Dems support open boarder.  If anything that links says both Dems and Republicans support a path to citizenship for people already here.  

Supporting path to citizenship for illegal immigrants =/=  Strictly enforce immigration policies.

You can't reward law breakers and call it enforcing justice. First of all, it is not fair to those who played by the rules. That's like giving a medal to a guy who stole a car because he can't be late for work. One thing I can say is that I feel sorry for the kids that were dragged into this mess though.

You're right about it not saying Dems but neither does it say Republican so I don't what you're saying. However if you're deluded enough to think that California is not leaning more towards Democratic ideology then I'm out. :)

Last edited by iron_megalith - on 07 November 2018

Puppyroach said:
jason1637 said:

That's the same thing. Giving citizenship to illegal immigrants is supporting illegal immigration. 

So by your reasoning, a person that commits a crime should be put into prison for the rest of their lives, regardless of their crime, otherwise you support the crime right? 😊

Feeling empathy for a person who committed the crime does not make the perpetrator absolved of any wrong doing. To a degree a punishment should be delivered. The punishment must be in accordance to the gravity of the crime.

For granting current illegal immigrants citizenship, what is the punishment for them breaking the law? What I can only see here is absolute pardon.



jason1637 said:
Machiavellian said:

From your last statement how do you conclude giving amnesty as being supporting illegal immigration.  If you want to understand what the Dems support then go back to the gang of 8 from 2013 bill they tried to pass which was a bipartisan effort.  All the things you list were on that bill, increase border security, stricter enforcement on expired visas etc.  The thing is it took 10 years to become a citizen for people seeking citizenship and there were a lot of rules that had to be followed in order to make it.  There was no amnesty for all and the effort was to make it easier to find people who probably should be deported for people who are looking to become legal.  

Giving a path to citizenship to illegal immigrants is supporting them lol. You're not punishing them for their crime but instead rewarding them.

You do know there is a huge service and agricultural industry that depends on these illegal immigrants.  Why do you believe that ICE isn't  heavily finding illegal immigrants in those industries.  The reason is because it would nuke the country.  ICE could easily hit every farm, hotels and other service industries that use illegal immigrants.  How many Americans are lining up to work fields and pick fruit or working cleaning people homes etc.  

The reason for giving the current people here amnesty and a path to citizenship is to bring those industries in line and have those people pay taxes instead of getting paid under the table.  It would mean higher wages because those industries would not be able to pay dirt cheap prices for their labor and at least minimum wage.  Giving amnesty also allows for working IDs in those industries making it harder for any new illegal immigrant to work in those industries leading to less illegal entry.

While you try to make it black and white, it really isn't.  America has run on illegal immigration for a long time an benefited from the cheap labor that you probably did not know you enjoyed.



iron_megalith said:
Machiavellian said:

Yeah, so what.  I read that link a long time ago, where does it show that Dems support open boarder.  If anything that links says both Dems and Republicans support a path to citizenship for people already here.  

Supporting path to citizenship for illegal immigrants =/=  Strictly enforce immigration policies.

You can't reward law breakers and call it enforcing justice. First of all, it is not fair to those who played by the rules. That's like giving a medal to a guy who stole a car because he can't be late for work. One thing I can say is that I feel sorry for the kids that were dragged into this mess though.

You're right about it not saying Dems but neither does it say Republican so I don't what you're saying. However if you're deluded enough to think that California is not leaning more towards Democratic ideology then I'm out. :)

The 2 are not the same.  Giving amnesty to someone in prison isn't also equal to not enforcing our criminal justice system.  There are many reasons to give amnesty and its not black or white.  I already gave a detail reason why I believe amnesty has been brought up by both parties and its really not about rewarding illegal immigration instead its really about money.  If you every want to really understand what drives policy in the US, follow the money trail because you can believe it's helping one section or another.

As for California, I have no clue about the state.  I do not live there so its not something I concern myself with.  Doing a quick search it seems that California has been mostly blue due to the biggest cities being democrats.  From what I can see there are some very conservative parts and some moderates.  I highly doubt California will ever go GOP if the biggest cities always vote blue.  



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Machiavellian said:
iron_megalith said:

Supporting path to citizenship for illegal immigrants =/=  Strictly enforce immigration policies.

You can't reward law breakers and call it enforcing justice. First of all, it is not fair to those who played by the rules. That's like giving a medal to a guy who stole a car because he can't be late for work. One thing I can say is that I feel sorry for the kids that were dragged into this mess though.

You're right about it not saying Dems but neither does it say Republican so I don't what you're saying. However if you're deluded enough to think that California is not leaning more towards Democratic ideology then I'm out. :)

The 2 are not the same.  Giving amnesty to someone in prison isn't also equal to not enforcing our criminal justice system.  There are many reasons to give amnesty and its not black or white.  I already gave a detail reason why I believe amnesty has been brought up by both parties and its really not about rewarding illegal immigration instead its really about money.  If you every want to really understand what drives policy in the US, follow the money trail because you can believe it's helping one section or another.

As for California, I have no clue about the state.  I do not live there so its not something I concern myself with.  Doing a quick search it seems that California has been mostly blue due to the biggest cities being democrats.  From what I can see there are some very conservative parts and some moderates.  I highly doubt California will ever go GOP if the biggest cities always vote blue.  

I know very well this is what drives everything. Sure you can argue that the illegal immigrants are filling in for the jobs but that doesn't discount the fact that these things were allowed to take place in the first place. It's highly exploitable given the current situation that we have right now. I would rather see the democrats voice a fair reform for immigration and also push for tougher immigration before pushing to provide any amnesty for current illegal immigrants. Till then, I consider the democrats in California to be full of shit and would rather play the sympathy game.

My argument still stands, it's still unfair to cater to them no matter you look at it. People want a piece of that pie but someone got to it before they did because someone cut in the lines. If someone says it's not an issue because there's a lot of that pie, then let's all say fuck the line and induce anarchy. May the best man win.

Last edited by iron_megalith - on 07 November 2018

iron_megalith said:
Machiavellian said:

The 2 are not the same.  Giving amnesty to someone in prison isn't also equal to not enforcing our criminal justice system.  There are many reasons to give amnesty and its not black or white.  I already gave a detail reason why I believe amnesty has been brought up by both parties and its really not about rewarding illegal immigration instead its really about money.  If you every want to really understand what drives policy in the US, follow the money trail because you can believe it's helping one section or another.

As for California, I have no clue about the state.  I do not live there so its not something I concern myself with.  Doing a quick search it seems that California has been mostly blue due to the biggest cities being democrats.  From what I can see there are some very conservative parts and some moderates.  I highly doubt California will ever go GOP if the biggest cities always vote blue.  

I know very well this is what drives everything. Sure you can argue that the illegal immigrants are filling in for the jobs but that doesn't discount the fact that these things were allowed to take place in the first place. It's highly exploitable given the current situation that we have right now. I would rather see the democrats voice a fair reform for immigration and also push for tougher immigration before forcefully providing any amnesty for current illegal immigrants. Till then, I consider the democrats in California to be full of shit and would rather play the sympathy game.

My argument still stands, it's still unfair to cater to them no matter you look at it. People want a piece of that pie but someone got to it before they did because someone cut in the lines. If someone says it's not an issue because there's a lot of that pie, then let's all say fuck the line and induce anarchy. May the best man win.

2013 the Dems did attempt a bipartisan bill but it was turned down in the house by the GOP.  Read up on the gang of 8 and the immigration reform they tried to get through and see if you support the measures they were trying to do.  There is history even back in 2006 when immigration reform was also attempted but failed.

The problem today is that we already have people here who work and live in the US for decades working in industries that need their support.  The US allowed this to happen because you just like many other Americans including myself enjoyed the benefits of that cheap labor.  The US is as much at fault as the illegal immigrant since we knew what was happening for years but turned a blind eye. Both sides were more than happy to accept the cheap labor and enjoy those people not having a say in US elections.  Now that their is a critical mass, its become a major topic and used to play on people fears because it plays well in politics.  To plug the whole, we need to handle the people who have lived here for years and probably provide working visas for people who work in the service and agricultural industries so they can get decent wages and go back to their country which most would probably do.  What would definitely be unethical is to just deport them all, split their families or nuke those industries and the economy.  The US has to own up to their own complicit involvement with this issue and develop better immigration reform that meets the need of the economy and the workers.



LiquorandGunFun said:
they need an underclass for votes. plain and simple. this caravan is just a pawn for power from the left and funded by leftest groups and some say by the socialist murder in Venezuela.

i feel sorry for the immigrants who went through the whole process of becoming a US citizen to see people who did nothing for citizenship just walk across. I worked with some immigrants from Iraq not too long ago and they were so nice, and was great to work with, one needed me to put a mp3 on his ipod that had audio of what he needed to know to take the test to become an American citizen, i will never forget how grateful he was to be here, and to have the opportunity to naturalize.

all for legal immigration, not for illegal immigration at all.

Exactly. Immigration isn't the problem. It's the illegal immigration. 

Borders exist for a reason. 



jason1637 said:
Puppyroach said:

So by your reasoning, a person that commits a crime should be put into prison for the rest of their lives, regardless of their crime, otherwise you support the crime right? 😊

No. If you commit a crime you should be punished accordingly to what you did.

Exactly, so you agree that illegal immigrants can apply after a period of time for citizenship and receive it, i.e. after they have taken the punishment for going into the country illegally?