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Forums - Politics Discussion - US Supreme Court: Christian baker does not have to bake 'the gay cake'

Aeolus451 said:

Would you get the point if the cake just said "marriage is only between men and women" instead of "god hates fags"? 

It would definitely be much less aggressive.

But the fact still remains the customer paid the baker to write "Steve loves and marries Robert" or whatever their names are, not "marriage is only between men  and women" If the customer needs the bakers opinion on the cake, I'm sure he's totally capable of asking for it. Also the baker's opinion only applies to the baker. No one is forcing the baker to marry another man, he can marry a woman that's fine and even great. But that does not give him the right to be judgemental on others people's lives wouldn't you say?

Also like I said in my previous post. Why isn't the baker ACTUALLY following his religion? The bible says judge not lest ye be judged, right? and Love thy neighbor and only God judges men etc.

Last edited by CrazyGamer2017 - on 04 June 2018

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CrazyGamer2017 said:
NightlyPoe said:

Above all, I think this is ultimately a question of respect.  A little understanding on both sides goes a long way.  Christians should respect that gay people are going to live their lives the way they wish, but gay people should understand that some Christians (and other religions) have their own set of beliefs that prohibit them from participating in celebrations that go against said religion.  It's really not all that difficult of an equation, but there's a sense of all or nothing that prevents mutually beneficial compromise.

You know what the ultimate irony is? The one thing that totally kills me?

I'm not very religious so correct me if I'm wrong but isn't religion about love, tolerance and not judging lest ye be judged?

Didn't Jesus speak of loving thy neighbor and all that stuff? Isn't religion about finding a God of love and everybody is happy till the end of times and what not?

Isn't God the ONLY ONE that is supposed to judge men?

Funny cause I'm not religious but it seems to me that people like that baker are even less religious than me, as in he's totally doing the opposite of what his religion is supposed to be about.

People find religions to justify their hate. How do I not drop dead right on the spot when I see such a huge contradiction? Such a blatant irony...

You are indeed incorrect about your assumption about theology and the law. You can start reading the NT (all of it) if you want to understand religion.



numberwang said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

You know what the ultimate irony is? The one thing that totally kills me?

I'm not very religious so correct me if I'm wrong but isn't religion about love, tolerance and not judging lest ye be judged?

Didn't Jesus speak of loving thy neighbor and all that stuff? Isn't religion about finding a God of love and everybody is happy till the end of times and what not?

Isn't God the ONLY ONE that is supposed to judge men?

Funny cause I'm not religious but it seems to me that people like that baker are even less religious than me, as in he's totally doing the opposite of what his religion is supposed to be about.

People find religions to justify their hate. How do I not drop dead right on the spot when I see such a huge contradiction? Such a blatant irony...

You are indeed incorrect about your assumption about theology and the law. You can start reading the NT (all of it) if you want to understand religion.

No I don't think I am, unless you care to elaborate a little further than simply saying I'm incorrect.

Does not the bible say judge not lest ye be judged? Love thy neighbor and all that stuff? I think it does, or did my religion teachers lie to me when I was a kid?



sundin13 said:
Aeolus451 said:

Would you get the point if the cake just said "marriage is only between men and women" instead of "god hates fags"? 

It doesn't matter because either way is a false equivalence.

One (the matter at hand) is speaking about not providing a generic service to a specific customer.

The other (your hypothetical) is speaking about not providing a specific service to a generic customer.

The first is not providing services because of 'who' is requesting them (which is discriminatory), while the second is not providing a specific service no matter who is requesting them. No one would complain if a plumber refused to provide someone with a wedding cake because that is not a service they provide to anyone. On the other hand, if a plumber refused to fix your toilet because you were Muslim, that would be an issue of discrimination...

It's comparable. Someone holds a belief/way of life you disagree with wants you to use your talents to make something that endorses what you disagree with them particularly on. 



zygote said:

I think the problem here is not that this guy has the right to choose how to run his business and will reap the results.  The problem is that the Supreme Court set a precedence for future actions in the country.  So now, any business has the right to do the same with their services.  Suddenly, it becomes trendy to refuse services to a minority.  They still make money, even moreso because they were in the news and have the backing of those also against the minority.  Then those ideas start to strengthen as the majority cannot fully relate to the minority and superiority is a very addictive quality to humans.  If you cannot be a success in life, at least you can be better than this one group of people.

These are the seeds that can blossom into a widespread and common distaste for that particular minority which can eventually escalate to mass actions such as camps or forced migration.  Not long and we have a culture obsessed with a task that doesn't benefit anyone and anything but their own egos.

It shouldn't be up to companies and citizens to protect the rights of minorities and stand up for them.  It should be the job of the nation's leadership to protect every citizen.

 

Insidb said:
Aeolus451 said:

Every industry is regulated to some degree. Key phrase "for the most part".

I'm concerned with the legal precedent being set here.

You could literally have communities that don't serve specific sexualities or races.

This was a 7-2 decision. they called it "narrow" because it doesn't really deal with the issue and set precedence.  It specifically deals with how the Baker was treated in the lower courts.  It wasn't a win for the LGBTQRLF community but it also wasn't some massive precedence setting blow.  At least that is my interpretation, perhaps I'm wrong.



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Aeolus451 said:
sundin13 said:

It doesn't matter because either way is a false equivalence.

One (the matter at hand) is speaking about not providing a generic service to a specific customer.

The other (your hypothetical) is speaking about not providing a specific service to a generic customer.

The first is not providing services because of 'who' is requesting them (which is discriminatory), while the second is not providing a specific service no matter who is requesting them. No one would complain if a plumber refused to provide someone with a wedding cake because that is not a service they provide to anyone. On the other hand, if a plumber refused to fix your toilet because you were Muslim, that would be an issue of discrimination...

It's comparable. Someone holds a belief/way of life you disagree with wants you to use your talents to make something that endorses what you disagree with them particularly on. 

Making a cake for someone is not endorsing anything, but even if it was, it would still be a false equivalency because only one of those two situations discriminates against someone based on their sexual orientation. Discrimination is the problem here. To say that the two are comparable is to utilize tangential comparisons to sidestep the heart of the issue, which, again, is discrimination.



CrazyGamer2017 said:
numberwang said:

You are indeed incorrect about your assumption about theology and the law. You can start reading the NT (all of it) if you want to understand religion.

No I don't think I am, unless you care to elaborate a little further than simply saying I'm incorrect.

Does not the bible say judge not lest ye be judged? Love thy neighbor and all that stuff? I think it does, or did my religion teachers lie to me when I was a kid?

I give you three teasers:

1. King David said that you should hate the enemies of God with perfect hatred. David was a man of God's own heart.

Psalm 139:21-22. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

2. Jesus defined marriage as a man and woman because God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus reaffirms this: "He answered, ‘Have you not read that he [God] who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?"

3. Paul condemned homosexuals

Romans 1:26-28: Because of this [idolatry], God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.



CrazyGamer2017 said:
numberwang said:

You are indeed incorrect about your assumption about theology and the law. You can start reading the NT (all of it) if you want to understand religion.

No I don't think I am, unless you care to elaborate a little further than simply saying I'm incorrect.

Does not the bible say judge not lest ye be judged? Love thy neighbor and all that stuff? I think it does, or did my religion teachers lie to me when I was a kid?

Who says the baker was judging? As a artist, he has the right to refuse cake order designs that he isn't comfortable with. As stated, he wasn't outright refusing their business. He just wasn't going to do a custom design that went against his beliefs. I used to manage a bakery and there were a few times I had to refuse requests that didn't line up with the business views of the company that I worked for. 

 

There other issue that isn't being talked about is the fact that this gay couple knew they were entering a Christian bakery. Maybe they should have planned better? It would be like requesting a Baptist church to perform their wedding.  As a Christian, I wouldn't enter a Muslim bakery and request a cake for Christmas "Happy Birthday to our true Savior". Like others have said, the free market will take care of most "discrimination" cases. 



eva01beserk said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

How does that even come close to the issue of the bakery? How do you compare a customer asking for a gay wedding cake to a customer demanding a line that says kill all Jews?

In what universe those two cases could ever bare the smallest similarity to each other?

Both instances of being forced to do something you dont want to do. How different or severe thouse acts are is irrelevant.

One is actually illegal to both do and even threaten to do in the EU and the other one is a legal union. Not anywhere on the same level. This case sets a precedent for anyone to discriminate using religion as a basis. If people started refusing to provide services to Christians, you better believe they would be up in arms about it and Trump would be compelled to get his little tweeting thumbs ready to disapprove. 



CrazyGamer2017 said:
Aeolus451 said:

Would you get the point if the cake just said "marriage is only between men and women" instead of "god hates fags"? 

It would definitely be much less aggressive.

But the fact still remains the customer paid the baker to write "Steve loves and marries Robert" or whatever their names are, not "marriage is only between men  and women" If the customer needs the bakers opinion on the cake, I'm sure he's totally capable of asking for it. Also the baker's opinion only applies to the baker. No one is forcing the baker to marry another man, he can marry a woman that's fine and even great. But that does not give him the right to be judgemental on others people's lives wouldn't you say?

Also like I said in my previous post. Why isn't the baker ACTUALLY following his religion? The bible says judge not lest ye be judged, right? and Love thy neighbor and only God judges men etc.

But they're trying to force him bake cakes or not at all. The bible does mention homosexuality so it falls under religious belief.