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Forums - Politics Discussion - US Supreme Court: Christian baker does not have to bake 'the gay cake'

CrazyGamer2017 said:
eva01beserk said:

Theres you problem righr there. I said it dosent matter what the act is. Its still forcing you to do something you dont want to. I at no point said a gay cake and a kill jews cake are in the same league. But to a nazi the gay cake is more insulting . It dosent matter what you belive is good or evil, there will always be some other group out there that thinks the oposite of you and since we have fredom here u like europe, we dont force either group to do whay they dont want ..... Except kill or steal... But you get my point.

Well in Europe we are free to buy anything in stores regardless of us being black, white, Jew, Asian, gay, lesbian etc... it seems you guys are not. But if you want to call that freedom, sure whatever. Home of the brave, Land of the (sometimes) free...

And again if you don't want to make a cake for someone cause he's gay, nobody will force you to do that in Europe, just don't become a baker, obviously. if you FREELY CHOOSE to become a baker, then it's your professional responsibility to honor customers. But I guess responsibility and seriousness is not part of the job in America?

And in the end you know what? I don't care that some idiot acts ignorant and irresponsible in his job, the real issue here is the supreme court upholding said idiot. That's the real tragedy.

Its the guys choice to do what he wants. He is free to face the repercussions for his actions. Wich will probably teanslate to customers avoiding his store. The goverment needs to stay out off it. The free market will weed out bad decisions. Force people to do things a certain way in some ocupations and people will avoid thouse occupations untill eventually that teade disappears or the remaining ones become so rare that prices skyrocket or worse yet it goes underground for something so insignificant.

 

You are cant get pass the intolerance of the guys actions and see the US as a hatefull place altogether. But i see that and think, inmagine if it was in some EU country, that guy would be in jail now. Or worse i inmagine myself being there and not be able to express myself or make a mean tweet and be jailed for it. Im glad im here and not there and will let some guys out there that are a tiny minority be as hatefull as they want without harming anybody and its a good price to pay.

 

Thouse who value security over freedom deserve neither.- Ben Franklin...I think.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

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CrazyGamer2017 said:
numberwang said:

Remember when gay rights turned from a libertarian 'why do you care what people do in their bedroom, it doesn't affect you' to an authoritarian 'bake the gay cake or go to jail, bigot'.

I'm not saying the idiot baker should go to jail, I'm simply saying: bake the cake and if you don't then why the hell did you become a baker in the first place?

By becoming a baker that sells to the public you are part of the social structure of your country and as such you have a moral responsibility which NO ONE is forcing you to do. If you are not up to it because of personal racist or homophobic beliefs, simply DON'T do a job where you will meet and serve other people.

7 of the highest authorities in the nation completely disagree with you. That should tell you something 



CrazyGamer2017 said:
Kirin_gaming said:

What did you mean by beliefs then? You said that businesses in Belgium cannot deny service based on someone's beliefs. Also, I wasn't comparing, nor equating anything you are the one who did that.

I said beliefs/sexual orientation/color of skin etc.

It's obvious but if I must spell it out I will: You cannot refuse service over here based on a customer's beliefs. You cannot say: I will not sell you food or medical health or insurances because you are Christian or Jew or Atheist. In fact nobody in a store over here would even ask a customer what their religion, color, sexual orientation is. How is that not obvious too in the United States?

Those are called religious beliefs. A bunch of things could be considered beliefs, such as believing certain race is superior to others, which is why I sincerely asked. BTW I agree that businesses should be forced to serve the groups you mentioned because when the state provides you with a license to operate they are trusting you to serve without discriminating. I also believe though that they should be forced to serve everyone, even the guy asking for the kill all jews cake, so long as they paid the asked price, as a citizen of the state they should also be entitled to be served what they want.



CrazyGamer2017 said:
eva01beserk said:

Theres you problem righr there. I said it dosent matter what the act is. Its still forcing you to do something you dont want to. I at no point said a gay cake and a kill jews cake are in the same league. But to a nazi the gay cake is more insulting . It dosent matter what you belive is good or evil, there will always be some other group out there that thinks the oposite of you and since we have fredom here u like europe, we dont force either group to do whay they dont want ..... Except kill or steal... But you get my point.

Well in Europe we are free to buy anything in stores regardless of us being black, white, Jew, Asian, gay, lesbian etc... it seems you guys are not. But if you want to call that freedom, sure whatever. Home of the brave, Land of the (sometimes) free...

And again if you don't want to make a cake for someone cause he's gay, nobody will force you to do that in Europe, just don't become a baker, obviously. if you FREELY CHOOSE to become a baker, then it's your professional responsibility to honor customers. But I guess responsibility and seriousness is not part of the job in America?

And in the end you know what? I don't care that some idiot acts ignorant and irresponsible in his job, the real issue here is the supreme court upholding said idiot. That's the real tragedy.

Is it a European thing to not read before commenting or is that just you?  I mean, seriously.  You're not even arguing the case or the decision.



eva01beserk said:

You are cant get pass the intolerance of the guys actions and see the US as a hatefull place altogether. But i see that and think, inmagine if it was in some EU country, that guy would be in jail now. Or worse i inmagine myself being there and not be able to express myself or make a mean tweet and be jailed for it. Im glad im here and not there and will let some guys out there that are a tiny minority be as hatefull as they want without harming anybody and its a good price to pay.

 

Thouse who value security over freedom deserve neither.- Ben Franklin...I think.

Then what are you doing on this forum?

This forum acts like Europe. You are free to express yourself but if you insult or discriminate gays or people of color you get warned and banned.

Yet you stay here so it seems this system of taking responsibility for what you say does not really bother you after all. And it's much easier to leave a forum than to leave a country.

And like I said before it seems we in Europe are free to enter any store and buy anything regardless of our skin color or sexual orientation, you guys are free to refuse service to the people. So who is the most free then?  We the people or you the businessmen? Very ironic that We the people of Europe are more free than you the people of a country whose constitution begins with the words "WE THE PEOPLE" Perhaps you should change it to "We the corporations...".



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LurkerJ said:
Go to a different baker? Problem solved.

Sure, but a ruling would need to look at it from a broader perspective.
What if it was a situation where there was no other option, or none of the local stores allowed them to purchase something due to their sexual orientation? (Doesn't have to be a cake.)

If Wallmart and all the major supermarkets suddenly refused to serve Christians (if they could somehow be identified), it would be a problem.
Although I imagine they wouldn't be allowed to do this because it would be considered discrimination.

This is such a small situation that my immediate thought is also "If they want to lose money, go ahead and refuse them your services". But if hypothetically every store in the state refused to do it for the same reason, would I feel the same way? Probably not, as the thought reminds me of when not too long ago, many stores wouldn't serve black people.

Although that begs the question, if it's based on your religious beliefs, does that make it ok? And on the flipside, should someone who holds these beliefs be forced to serve the customer (so long as it fits their job description)? If I refused to do everything I don't want to do at my job, I'd be fired. But if I'm forced to do something that goes against my religious beliefs, it can be cause for a case of discrimination. 

It's kind of an interesting paradox.
Basically, if you don't allow this baker to discriminate against gay people, you're discriminating against his religious beliefs.
So it may be discrimination no matter which way the ruling went. If that was the case, then maybe the fact that it was his own company (I think?) would be the tie breaker. But on the other hand, he was allowed to purchase that store space from the government to serve the public.

Last edited by Hiku - on 04 June 2018

Maxosaurus-rex said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

I'm not saying the idiot baker should go to jail, I'm simply saying: bake the cake and if you don't then why the hell did you become a baker in the first place?

By becoming a baker that sells to the public you are part of the social structure of your country and as such you have a moral responsibility which NO ONE is forcing you to do. If you are not up to it because of personal racist or homophobic beliefs, simply DON'T do a job where you will meet and serve other people.

7 of the highest authorities in the nation completely disagree with you. That should tell you something 

Yes, that your government is setting a dangerous precedent that will push to more discrimination. And whether they are 7 or 7 million does not change the nature of the discrimination.



pokoko said:

Is it a European thing to not read before commenting or is that just you?  I mean, seriously.  You're not even arguing the case or the decision.

Don't you see we are debating a very specific situation?

And I read you the first time but this is the second time you post saying this and you still don't explain yourself.

Don't end a post by "you are not arguing the case or the decision", end it with an explanation on what the case is and what the decision is, something basic, no need to write a long essay.

Your post reminds me of people who reply "you are wrong"... and nothing else. It's fine to say one is wrong but a bit of context and explanation of why one is wrong is obviously missing in such posts.



Without really looking deeply into this, I would say this is the right ruling. It's one thing if he's refusing any service whatsover, but this makes it sound like he's being asked to provide a service that endorses something he doesn't support. I would obviously disagree with his way of thinking, but it's a private business at the end of the day, the only thing that should be punished is his wallet through lost business. As sick as his way of thinking might be, it makes me more sick to imagine a world where everyone is forced to agree with each other at legal gunpoint.



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CrazyGamer2017 said:
Maxosaurus-rex said:

7 of the highest authorities in the nation completely disagree with you. That should tell you something 

Yes, that your government is setting a dangerous precedent that will push to more discrimination. And whether they are 7 or 7 million does not change the nature of the discrimination.

You need to stop. Everything you just said is wrong