Kasz216 said: Words Of Wisdom said: Kasz216 said: Hm. I don't remember that... all i remember is him being a dick, who did a lot of dickish things... (like kefka), who's only real motivation was to cause all the chaos he could and kill people (like kefka). Though he used the anger at his family losing his lineage as the excuse. Replay OG2 and choose the Earth Cradle at the final branch choice. The truth about what happened at Elpis was pretty dispicable. I thought it was a simple case of Grims poisoning everyone but his actions were far far more cruel than that and explain a lot of Rai's hatred for Elzam in OG1. Oh, i get what you mean... I don't see how that gives him depth at all.  It just makes Archibald a dick. Also Kefka tried the EXACT same thing. On the floating Island.  Well except with a sword instead of poison gas. Unfortunitly for him however he didn't offer a good enough reason for Celes to pull the trigger.

I never said it gave him more depth.  It gave me more of a reason to really really dislike him though.

And no, what Kefka did was different than what Grims did as Grims succeeded where Kefka failed.

Not only did Grims get what he wanted from Elpis, poison all the people in the area not inside the colony interior, but he also got Elzam to pull the trigger killing his own wife.  Kefka couldn't even get any of that from his plans.

Words Of Wisdom said: Final-Fan said: --Backstory: the way I see it, he was just the Emporer's tool for the first part of the game. Your enemy was the Empire. It wasn't until later that we saw Kefka as the true nemesis, and by then he had all the "backstory" we needed in the parts of the game we'd already played. --Motivation: I don't often quote movie trailers, but "some people just want to watch the world burn". Kefka was completely loony-tunes; does his goal really have to make sense to us, or does it just have to be internally consistent with who he is? --Actions: Well, apparently he's a big fan of backstabbing. He likes to watch people die, and he likes to be the one who caused it. Especially if the death is painful. In his spare time he just likes to fuck with people. ("There's SAND on my boots!") He spends most of his on-screen time causing havoc, and he's not the type to conceal his amusement at it all. --Ire level: If you don't care about any of the people Kefka wronged and murdered, well, I guess you just don't care about anyone in the whole damn game. Don't blame Kefka for not trying. --Personality: Does the Joker in Batman have a personality? If by "all the backstory we needed" you mean none of it then yes I agree. In the beginning of the game, he's just a high ranking evil jerk who works for the Empire. In the second half of the game, you see even less of him than the first part except for where he kills Leo. No development at all really. The closest you'll find are the end of WoB and the death of Leo. Again, the excuse that he's "just evil" is a poor one. When we're talking about random baddie number 52, "just evil" is fine because it's a speedbump in the story. When we're talking about the BBEG of the game, "just evil" doesn't cut it IMO. His actions are amazingly predictable. Like I said: Appear, one-liner, evil action, maniacal laughter, disappear. Rinse and repeat. I'm sorry, Kefka's greatest accomplishments in this area were Cyan's family (which only really gets hammered if you do the extra quests for Cyan) and Leo (who the game never really makes you care about anyway). And yeah, the Joker in Batman has a personality. I watched the old Batman cartoons that showed how he became the Joker which made him a lot more interesting as a villain. Actually, until I saw those I had never liked him...

You'll be disapointed to know that wasn't really his origin.... probably. Joker has had like... a dozen origins he's told...

What's maddening is according to DC they are all in continuity... despite none of them making sense. Basically, the jokers told them all... and is likely lying about them all... there is the on where he's red hood and falls in a vat, there is one where he's a chemist and goes crazy...

As the Joker said...

"Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another... if I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

Of course that might just add more depth rather then less.

Also as for how much they reveal in the game. I believe just that he hates everything for some reason, and that the magitek treatments made him insane... which is a big reason why Cid takes everything so seriously.

Kasz216 said: You'll be disapointed to know that wasn't really his origin.... probably. Joker has had like... a dozen origins he's told... What's maddening is according to DC they are all in continuity... despite none of them making sense. Basically, the jokers told them all... and is likely lying about them all... there is the on where he's red hood and falls in a vat, there is one where he's a chemist and goes crazy... As the Joker said... "Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another... if I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" Of course that might just add more depth rather then less.

That's actually... pretty hilarious.

Words Of Wisdom said: Final-Fan said: The reason I put "backstory" into quotes is that it's not actually backstory, but by the time we see him as the game's primary baddie we have already seen a lot of him; we have that history of him, even if we don't know much from the time before the opening credits.  He isn't as developed as Terra or Cyan or Relm or a lot of the other characters but there is development, or at least advancement. I get the feeling you won't be happy until you see an outline of how he got from (presumably) normal baby to fucking psycho.  I actually misspoke earlier; when I played through the game it didn't seem to me that he started out as "completely loony tunes".  It seemed to me that he started out as a power-hungry sadist, somewhat insane but not unable to function in society (given that the society gave him an outlet for his homicidal tendencies), progressing to more like the Joker, unable to contain his lust for carnage, and finally getting to live out his awful dreams with the powers of a god.  Unless I'm misremembering (and you've replayed the game a lot more recently than I have) there's not ZERO character development. By the way, what does BBEG mean?  Sorry if you mentioned it earlier but I just skimmed all your posts in this thread and didn't spot it offhand. One-liners?  Are you sure you're not exaggerating?  I remember extensive dialogue.  He talks a lot about himself and his plans, even if it's pretty much monomaniacal rants about destroying people or things (and, eventually, about destroying everyone and everything). I'm sorry, please make up your mind on whether optional quests are valid story elements.  And didn't you say he is the one who is responsible for the World of Ruin?  Every instance you see of suffering and hardship as a result of that planetary disaster (and almost all the places you run into are to some degree devastated) is a result of his actions. Kefka has more character development in the course of the game IMO than the Joker gets, although it's been a decade since I watched BTAS extensively and I never read the comics.  Sure, we get more true backstory on the Joker, detailing his past and "origin", but after he shows up as the Joker how much does he really change?  At all? Do you like Kefka more now that you know all about his past? BBEG means "Big Bad Evil Girl/Guy." Final bosses or highly significant arch-enemies qualify for the title. ^_^ About the one-liners, I'm definitely exaggerating... to a point. In the end it comes down to those were the only things memorable about him which isnt' a good thing. Again, whatever his actions were, they never did anything for me. I was less angry with him for creating WoR than I was annoyed that I couldn't just put a sword in him and move on to a more interesting villain. As far as character development outside the game, I don't much care. If it's not in the game, it's not really canon to me and it shouldn't be weighed in the game's value. ^_^

I figured as much; just wanted to know the exact wording.

Again, it's not for lack of effort.  Kefka did everything from hideous war crimes to genocide to up close and personal treachery and murder, and you just don't care because you don't care about the characters he's doing it to and don't respect the guy who's doing it.

As far as character development inside the game, as I said, I'm not sure how much of that we get hints of but I'm fairly sure (not completely) that we AT LEAST are given enough for anyone paying attention to [edit:  infer] that he is likely insane as a result of magitek infusions.  So he has a reason to be loony tunes as much as the Joker ever did.  Well, depending on what his past is this week, apparently.

Final-Fan said: I figured as much; just wanted to know the exact wording. Again, it's not for lack of effort. Kefka did everything from hideous war crimes to genocide to up close and personal treachery and murder, and you just don't care because you don't care about the characters he's doing it to and don't respect the guy who's doing it. As far as character development inside the game, as I said, I'm not sure how much of that we get hints of but I'm fairly sure (not completely) that we AT LEAST are given enough for anyone paying attention to imply that he is likely insane as a result of magitek infusions. So he has a reason to be loony tunes as much as the Joker ever did. Well, depending on what his past is this week, apparently.

 Fair enough.  I think I can agree with all that.  

^ Hooray!

ffVI and chrono trigger are clearly the two best rpgs ever IMO. for me they are about tied but i give the nod to ffVI just cuz the character development was just amazing and nothing has ever touched it. Chrono Trigger did a lot of things FFVI didn't and did it all perfectly but i'd say that CT is 99% of the game that FFVI is. Definitely my two favorite games of all time.

And since we are mentioning some other great ones. FFIV ain't too far off those two, although the ending is a little to kiddy for me in that everyone that dies comes back to life. that was just cheesy and ruined the emotional sacrifices of all those characters throughout the game, when i played through it a second time many years after my first playthrough as a kid i had forgotten they all come back to life and that was just a huge letdown for me in the emotional power of the game. and overall it just wasn't quite on the same level in any regard as FFVI. but still my third favorite game ever.

meanwhile secret of mana was just amazing and i played through it with my bro and a friend and i'd say 3-player its pretty much right up there with FFIV. never played it one player. and super mario rpg was my 5th favorite snes rpg in that it was just a brilliant combination of great role-playing and the the mario universe, although i don't think it quite matches up to those other 4 rpgs which to me perfectly define the traditional rpg, action rpg(as well as multiplayer rpg), and turn-based action rpg.

Secret of Mana>Earthbound>FF6>DQ6>CT.

Secret of Mana is king. The end. :)

SoulBlazer kills Chrono and FF combined as well.