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Forums - General Discussion - I'm tired of this overemphasis on diversity spilling into our entertainment.

Mandalore76 said:
FentonCrackshell said:

lol "captain no reading". That's fun. Anyway, what's odd is that I've read the posts and you're probably the one I most agree with. Because I agree that creating new characters is the way to go. However, most people don't feel this way and just don't like diversity in general. Look at posters talking about how Star Wars is bad because of diversity. As if the cast being white is what made it good in the first place. Or they'd like TLJ more if Rey were white male and Fin weren't black. Such nonsense! What does dive either have to do with the poor fan reception of TLJ?

No matter what there will always be negative reception to diversity. Nadine Ross was a new character in Uncharted and as soon as she was revealed people started griping about a black character. Even though her race plays no part in her story whatsoever. Just the fact that she's black set people off. So yeah, new character, new story, same bullsh!t. 

 

Horizon: Zero Dawn gave us a female lead who isn't a man-hating feminist and p pole still whined. And people went nuts over the fact that game is full of diverse characters. All new characters, with none of them playing that us vs. them crap. The game even explains why there's such diversity in the world and people still called it forced. Fact is people will always have these notions when they feel their way of life is being threatened. 99% of gaming and film are lead by SWM and seeing a slight change pisses those people off. And I don't need the hero to look like me for me to root for him/her. Most of my favorite characters, actors, and athletes are white. But seeing others play the role some Ike's is refreshing. Except for black Johnny Storm. That was beyond idiotic!

The gender and races of characters in the new Star Wars movies have nothing to do with them being poor as far as Star Wars movies go.  Rey and Finn are original characters, so Disney can make them whatever gender or race they want.  Black people existed in the original trilogy.  Finn is not a revolutionary character in the Star Wars universe.  Nor is a female main character.  I am aware of the backlash against the Mary Sue nature of Rey, but that's a bigger issue than Rey being female.  I do have an issue with both "The Force Awakens" and "The Last Jedi", but it goes way beyond race and gender of characters.  My biggest issue with the "The Force Awakens" is that it was a total and unoriginal retread of Star Wars, and I got that feeling immediately while watching it in theater opening weekend.  I don't need to see a shot for shot remake of Star Wars when I can just watch Star Wars.  Case in point, this weekend there was a Star Wars marathon on the FX channel.  I happened to miss the showing of the original Star Wars.  Instead of watching "The Force Awakens", I went into the On Demand and qued up Star Wars instead.  "The Last Jedi" has even more going against it, in that it just wasn't a very good movie.  There were completely out of place jokey scenes that just because they worked in "Guardians of the Galaxy", Disney is trying to force them into everything.  I'm talking about the kind of scenes that are hilarious in Seth McFarland's Family Guy Star Wars parodies or episodes of Robot Chicken, but have no business being in Star Wars.  Also, the 2 films are completely incongruous.  Every plotline JJ Abrams set up in TFA went nowhere or was reversed in TLJ.  Worst of all was the treatment of Mark Hamill.  They lied about how Luke would be used in the new trilogy to get him under contract.  They showed him a script where he would be heavily involved in the plotline of TFA only to reduce him to a wordless pre-credits scene, and then completely subverted the essence of his character in TLJ.  Those are my issues with the new Star Wars trilogy.  I just want a good Star Wars movie, and TLJ was completely underwhelming on that front.  

I've said this before, but I thought the "diversity" was done perfectly in Rogue One, but the feminism in TLJ was over the top and (was one of many things that) kept me from enjoying the film as much. Pretty much every male was a dumbass in the movie who either continued being a dumbass (pretty much all of the empire) or was "fixed" by a female (Luke, Finn, Poe to an extent). If there was any argument between the sexes, you knew the female was right.  In addition, not only is Rey pretty much a Mary Sue (which is fine and doesn't really bother me much) but EVERY SINGLE OTHER FEMALE in the movie is pretty much perfect. Leia, Holdo (or whatever her name is), Rose, Rey - all completely mistake free and incapable of making a mistake. The only female who isn't perfect in the movie is Phasma, but of course she's covered in a mask.

Of course all the things you mention about the movie were terrible as well. Ugh, I just can't get over how much I hate that movie.



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I have no issue with diversity and actually very much support it when it happens organically, but when it's constantly forced is where there can be issues.

For one, I can't help but think that more and more are placing value over the color of one's skin or their sex rather than the attributes that REALLY matter, which are one's character and actions. Like, why place so much emphasis on something we're born into be sheer luck and chance?

The second issue I have is when companies/studios use "diversity" as their primary selling point or main means to garner attention, rather than let the quality of the product itself drive attention and hype. Recent examples would be the Ghostbusters remake, and Blizzard randomly proclaiming that Tracer from Overwatch was gay (which nobody cared about btw).

Like, of course I believe nobody should be excluded, and representation is a great thing, but it's reaching an almost anti-intellectual in many ways where baked-in traits are taking precedence over all else, which is not a progression for my money, but rather a REgression. I just tend to hold much more value in diversity of personality, opinions, characteristics, life experiences, etc rather than the color of one's skin, which means very little to me.



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

Oh boo hoo, not everything is hetero/white male centric anymore. Who cares? Entertainment is entertainment. If you allow the race, sex, creed, age etc; affect your perception of said entertainment, sounds like a YOU problem



VGPolyglot said:
Azuren said:

It doesn't, but how would having an accurate ratio of blacks in the game make it worse?

 

Again, the answer would be that it doesn't affect anything. Which begs the question: Why go with the diversity quotas rather than making the game's setting accurate?

The TC is criticizing diversity in games, and not the other way around. So we are going based on the premise that diversity is bad, not that accuracy is good.

So your argument is accuracy doesn't matter because the topic creator didn't mention it?



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Azuren said:
VGPolyglot said:

The TC is criticizing diversity in games, and not the other way around. So we are going based on the premise that diversity is bad, not that accuracy is good.

So your argument is accuracy doesn't matter because the topic creator didn't mention it?

My argument is that the focus was not on accuracy, but diversity.



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VGPolyglot said:
What's wrong with making someone gay or female for the sake of being that? That's a way to create depth for a character, and even if it doesn't add much to the story it helps bring a sense of liveliness to the world to give mundane details. Also, it seems that in your mind someone being straight or white or male or whatever is the default, so if someone decides to do forego that they're going to automatically get extra scrutiny and will either pass or fail the seemingly arbitrary test of whether or not this diversity is acceptable.

Because something that is done for the sake of being that is not creating depth. It's literally the most shallow thing a trait can be and usually gets placed instead of actual meaningful character development. Multiple viewpoints and having a diverse casts are a good thing, but doing things for the sake of doing is lazy and worsens the product 99% of the time.



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Smear-Gel said:

People who think diversity is more forced than the usual are just seeing what happens when certain groups are no longer seen as a default in moves. A cast of straight white males are also just as much pandering and forced as a cast of diverse characters and is also done to capture a certain audience. We are simply in a world where that is no longer the case. Think about TV, a channel that is advertising to white people will have shows that white people want to watch, so the casts will be white in a percived move to make them more comfortable. Then someone who grew up with all their shows being white will just see it as normal and think diversity is forced. Let's stop this forced racial quotas in all white tv shows amirite?

As for "let's stop changing straight white male characters" it's not equivalent at al. Changing Lara Croft into a man is changing one of a relatively small number of female characters into a male. Making Spiderman black still leaves you with ten gorillion white superheroes and is comparitvely not a big deal. Not to mention, in the hundreds of years of media before now, 95% of the people were white because it was seen as the default. In a world that is more diverse, going back to these older properties, that's obviously gonna change as our sensibilities are different.

The problem is that people are looking at the world in some idealistic way where things are already equal and none of this is necessary because representation was and is never a problem and everyone was already treated equally, which is not the case. And even then, until we live in a post discrimination world, some of the diversity is gonna be forced. And really, who gives a shit if it is, to be honest. That doesnt really spea to the quality of the work or employee or actor at all.

Also several parts of the debate are a weak attempt to have your cake and eat it too, basically its "I want the creators to choose the best person for the job, but if the creators choose a minority then that's a problem because obviously it was forced"

This isnt directed at anyone specifically. But basically I disagree on every point.

This is spot on



VGPolyglot said:
Azuren said:

So your argument is accuracy doesn't matter because the topic creator didn't mention it?

My argument is that the focus was not on accuracy, but diversity.

Okay, and the question I'm posing is why should we sacrifice accuracy for diversity?



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outlawauron said:
VGPolyglot said:
What's wrong with making someone gay or female for the sake of being that? That's a way to create depth for a character, and even if it doesn't add much to the story it helps bring a sense of liveliness to the world to give mundane details. Also, it seems that in your mind someone being straight or white or male or whatever is the default, so if someone decides to do forego that they're going to automatically get extra scrutiny and will either pass or fail the seemingly arbitrary test of whether or not this diversity is acceptable.

Because something that is done for the sake of being that is not creating depth. It's literally the most shallow thing a trait can be and usually gets placed instead of actual meaningful character development. Multiple viewpoints and having a diverse casts are a good thing, but doing things for the sake of doing is lazy and worsens the product 99% of the time.

Is that and meaningful character development mutually exclusive?

Azuren said:
VGPolyglot said:

My argument is that the focus was not on accuracy, but diversity.

Okay, and the question I'm posing is why should we sacrifice accuracy for diversity?

If we were talking about accuracy, why can you get reload after you die? If it was completely accurate the game would be over and unplayable after you die once. The fact of the matter is that creative liberties are virtually always used in fictional media.



Angelus said:
Smear-Gel said:

People who think diversity is more forced than the usual are just seeing what happens when certain groups are no longer seen as a default in moves. A cast of straight white males are also just as much pandering and forced as a cast of diverse characters and is also done to capture a certain audience. We are simply in a world where that is no longer the case. Think about TV, a channel that is advertising to white people will have shows that white people want to watch, so the casts will be white in a percived move to make them more comfortable. Then someone who grew up with all their shows being white will just see it as normal and think diversity is forced. Let's stop this forced racial quotas in all white tv shows amirite?

As for "let's stop changing straight white male characters" it's not equivalent at al. Changing Lara Croft into a man is changing one of a relatively small number of female characters into a male. Making Spiderman black still leaves you with ten gorillion white superheroes and is comparitvely not a big deal. Not to mention, in the hundreds of years of media before now, 95% of the people were white because it was seen as the default. In a world that is more diverse, going back to these older properties, that's obviously gonna change as our sensibilities are different.

The problem is that people are looking at the world in some idealistic way where things are already equal and none of this is necessary because representation was and is never a problem and everyone was already treated equally, which is not the case. And even then, until we live in a post discrimination world, some of the diversity is gonna be forced. And really, who gives a shit if it is, to be honest. That doesnt really spea to the quality of the work or employee or actor at all.

Also several parts of the debate are a weak attempt to have your cake and eat it too, basically its "I want the creators to choose the best person for the job, but if the creators choose a minority then that's a problem because obviously it was forced"

This isnt directed at anyone specifically. But basically I disagree on every point.

This is spot on

I mean, not really, no. 

 

The population of the US is still majority white, majority straight, and majority cis. Gender is totally split into different genres, as men and women are attracted to different types of fiction. While other groups have expanded since the early days of film, America at least is still mostly white, hetero, and cis.

 

And you can't argue in favor of changing white cis straight males to something else while arguing against changing, say, Miles Morales into a white guy. Its hypocritical.

 

The problem is instead of introducing new characters, they're changing established characters. Don't pretend it's more complicated than that.

 

And finally, he pretty much sums up his entire post, though he thinks he's summing up opposing posts.



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