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Forums - Politics Discussion - Where do you stand in the Kuril Islands dispute?

CaptainExplosion said:
contestgamer said:

What are you taking about? Crimea belonged to Russia.

Not after the Soviet Union collapsed. Putin is clearly trying to rebuild the USSR, which of course would mean a global panic, all because he's overcompensating for something.

Why would that mean global panic? The US has military basis in a 100 countries, cant Russia have its own footprint?



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CaptainExplosion said:

 

Putin would obviously use [the Kuril islands] to test weapons of mass destruction, even if it means his own people getting caught ...

Uh... obviously. Like, you seem to be informed of his timeline to test WMD on Kuril Islands. ~70 years have passed but some time very soon?
Any special feature of the southern Kuril islands in dispute to make "Putin" test "weapons of mass destruction" there, as opposed to other
uninhabited Kuril islands... or you know, the vast stretches of land in the rest of their territory? 



VGPolyglot said:

Japan agreed to the Potsdam Declaration which specified that only the 4 main islands were to remain part of Japan, with the smaller islands being at the discretion of the Allies. So Japan agreed to relinquish control.

Just what are you talking about? The Potsdam Agreement talks about Europe

Just got Ninja'd.

 

In any case, the Kuril Islands were a point in the San Francisco Peace treaty, in which it says that Japan has to renounce the islands + Sakhalin, etc. The issue arrives from the fact that Japan claims that the islands they claim aren't part of the Kuril Islands as stipulated in the Peace treaty.



Kaneman! said:
VGPolyglot said:

Japan agreed to the Potsdam Declaration which specified that only the 4 main islands were to remain part of Japan, with the smaller islands being at the discretion of the Allies. So Japan agreed to relinquish control.

Just what are you talking about? The Potsdam Agreement talks about Europe

Just got Ninja'd.

 

In any case, the Kuril Islands were a point in the San Francisco Peace treaty, in which it says that Japan has to renounce the islands + Sakhalin, etc. The issue arrives from the fact that Japan claims that the islands they claim aren't part of the Kuril Islands as stipulated in the Peace treaty.

Yeah, I mixed up the Agreement and Declaration.



Farsala said:
Shikotan and Habomai should definitely be Japanese as agreed upon. Russia just uses it as a buffer for negotiations. 

OK, but the relevant fact is that Japan is the party that refused to implement that agreement (peace treaty).
I agree it is plausible model of future agreement, but Japan has not seriously tried to re-establish that never-signed agreement.
Japan has not stated it is willing to recognize Russian territory and establish full peace in exchange for Shikotan and Habomai group.
They periodically enter "negotiations" but even basic acknowledgement of previously agreed deals doesn't seem to happen. (publicly)
Essentially, Japan has sabotaged that kind of deal over and over. If Russia is still open to it, that is as generous as one can imagine.
And Russia doesn't seem desperate for this deal, like I wrote, they want solid peace treaty, not Japan still de facto military allied against it.

Really, this thead has been taken over by off-topic troll, and the wall of text with links I bothered to dig up are ignored. Lovely.

EDIT: Mostly I just don't understand why anybody choosing to be interested in this topic would NOT want to engage with detailed facts like I linked. If somebody isn't really interested in the topic at all, obviously that is their personal choice. But if you are interested, what are you doing if not engaging with historic details? I guess we some people who seem to push emotional tangent based on propaganda they buy into, but that was really just one poster.

Last edited by mutantsushi - on 03 April 2018

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mutantsushi said:

Really, this thead has been taken over by off-topic troll, and the wall of text with links I bothered to dig up are ignored. Lovely.

They aren't ignored by some. People just can't argue against facts, so they skip the information they deem detrimental to their cause and narrative.

OT: Japan did indeed refuse to sign the agreement that would bring two of the islands under their control (in 1956?), because they wanted 4 islands instead. But by now, the situation has changed, like I said before. The islands are effectively Russian, and under Russian administration.



Kaneman! said:

In any case, the Kuril Islands were a point in the San Francisco Peace treaty, in which it says that Japan has to renounce the islands + Sakhalin, etc. The issue arrives from the fact that Japan claims that the islands they claim aren't part of the Kuril Islands as stipulated in the Peace treaty.

It is more accurate to say the Japanese government NOW claims that, the Japanese government, PM and Foreign Ministry at the time clearly beleived the agreement to incude renunciation of the South Kurils now in "dispute", they testified to that in own parliament at time. Now Japanese 'conservatives' who hold positive views of fascist era dislike the SF agreement in general, but this doesn't mean Japanese government policy did not renounce these islands in treaty form. The link I posted is very detailed with related facts about this.  https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2005/03/24/opinion/northern-territories-dispute-highlights-flawed-diplomacy/



VGPolyglot said:
Ganoncrotch said:
I stand on the other side of the planet not caring about it because like 99.99999% of people on the planet, this doesn't impact me.

Thank you for your valuable insight into this topic.

You are very welcome, I'm glad to contribute my feelings and stance on this.

I appreciate that you feel that spending a lot of time writing up on this or looking at the history of this situation is great towards education of yourself and others who feel they can contribute to this on platforms like here and Facebook, but realistically I rather invest my time online on studying things which I will use myself such as IT support / security videos which I make use of to earn money or reputation as knowing my trade.

I would find it very difficult to derail a conversation at work so far that I could discuss "the Kuril Islands dispute"



Why not check me out on youtube and help me on the way to 2k subs over at www.youtube.com/stormcloudlive

mutantsushi said:

It is more accurate to say the Japanese government NOW claims that, the Japanese government, PM and Foreign Ministry at the time clearly beleived the agreement to incude renunciation of the South Kurils now in "dispute", they testified to that in own parliament at time. Now Japanese 'conservatives' who hold positive views of fascist era dislike the SF agreement in general, but this doesn't mean Japanese government policy did not renounce these islands in treaty form. The link I posted is very detailed with related facts about this.  https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2005/03/24/opinion/northern-territories-dispute-highlights-flawed-diplomacy/

Yes, I know. They're re-interpreting history to fit their agenda. Politics in a nutshell.



Kaneman! said:

OT: Japan did indeed refuse to sign the agreement that would bring two of the islands under their control (in 1956?), because they wanted 4 islands instead. But by now, the situation has changed, like I said before. The islands are effectively Russian, and under Russian administration.

To be clear, the claim for 4 islands was shift away from their previous negotiating position, as detailed in the article I linked. In fact it was result of US pressure which aimed at NO AGREEMENT between Japan and Soviets, so considering it true negotiation position seems dubious, it was knowingly designed to fail. The expanded claim, despite previos official recognition (which soon lapsed) of renunciation in SF perhaps catered to right wing opinion, but that was not driver of policy. Although it's worth mentioning current Japanese right wing includes view placing blame primarily on US for sabotaging issue for it's own interests, and preferring to conclude deal only recovering Shikotan and Habomai and recognizing larger islands as Russian along with larger peace treaty.

Last edited by mutantsushi - on 03 April 2018