"Dragon Age inquisition was a critically acclaimed and well loved entry into the franchise"

You literally took the one example I was thinking of, haha. 

I'm talking about Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, The Old Republic, Mass Effect Andromeda. You know ... a huge majority of their catalog since 2011? I'm sure your reply will be "but but metacritic reviews!" or "but people liked ME3 just not the ending!" - let's be honest, critic scores have almost never mattered and that's a silly metric. All those games got massive backlash for various reasons, The Old Republic was considered pretty damn mediocre or even disliked when it launched, Andromeda was hated, Dragon Age 2 was hated, Mass Effect 3 I think by in large has gotten MORE dis-favorable as time goes on and more fans seem to not enjoy it's more action oriented approach. That's up for debate, but what's not up for debate is that as a whole - meaning the market opinion - these games were at best considered divisive and mediocre and at worst considered terrible. Not a great track record. And if your reply to that is "Well, that's just like not fair! Only two of those were recieved absolutely terribly!" Well ok, the defense that Bioware is still a good developer literally relies on one game ...

"If you think the studio has any actual say in this you're at best very naive, when it comes to the way certain publlishers operate. Even if you think somehow all of EAs studios are just running wild and just doing whatever the fuck they want, it isn't a good look for EA and just spells incompetence all over again."

You normally make really good replies so it's very odd that you would write something this off-base. I mean, you literally take a leap from "if you think the studio has any actual say" to , and I'm not exaggerating, "if you think somehow all of EAs studios are just running wild" - WHAT? Do you have to resort to such faulty logic to make a reply? No, you really don't. So don't do it. 

Not only that, but I don't understand the whole "naive" aspect of that sentence. Let's be honest, most of the internet outrage is from people that watched three YongYea videos and think they know all the ins and outs of EA. When it comes to pretty much any forum poster, you're always going to know way less than a developer(and even they know less  than the corporate chain). It's great that there's outrage over bad companies like EA - it's well deserved, but let's not pretend like most people bashing on their control of creative developers are coming from an educated scholarly perspective. There's always going to be speculation.

"Also EA has a long and storied history of doing this. When you have 13+ dead studios under your belt, you have systemic issue, not a few rouge studios."

You're right, where did I dispute or deny this?  

"Not sure what you're trying to achive by calling 'good-guy EA' here. It just isn't the reality of the situation."

Playing 'good-guy EA'? Surely you're more mature than that? That's absolutely, and not even close to, what I'm doing. Holy god, people get so defensive of their preconceived notions. A notion I don't even disagree with, just one that I think is over extending it's reach. I think you seriously need to reread my comment, because even if it's in slight disagreement it's a way more innocent intention than you seem to think. I'm simply suggesting that something is clearly wrong with the developers as well as the publishers. You're going to far, and not just that, but you're acting like Bioware is a toddler that needs to be babied. They decided to sign with EA, and surely they have some level of responsibility for their games. I'm not saying it's a 100% or that they wouldn't do better under a different publisher either.

I'm not here to defend EA but are they really the cause for all these things that are wrong with the industry? People complain now about online games but they sell single player games to the second hand market without any care of what that will influence the future decisions of publishers, people bought the yearly releases, online focus games like COD, Destiny and overwatch and all the things you complain are present in these games but Activision gets a free pass, same as Take Two with GTA online, and if people set these trends, why are people mad that EA follow them? Why is following the trends your customers set, now called incompetence? EA makes mistakes, yes, no doubt, but follow their customers isn't one of them.

The devs are their employees but with a honest dialogue many things could be prevented like missed dead lines and rushed games full of bugs (BTW Ubi is king here) because I've worked in a software development company and dead lines were missed all the time, not because of management, but because the software developers were always very confident at the beginning, and then they would fail, and I worked with several teams and many were advised to be more realistic but that didn't change the outcome of the next project. Not saying that this happens inside EA, i don't know, but neither do others that claim the fault is in the management. 

As a business they are doing what they think is good for them and I agree with most, not all. As their customer, i also like their new approach of trying something else instead of season pass and I like that because season pass are stupid as stupid can be... I couldn’t care less about MT because I will never use them, and if that means the end of season pass for competitive MP games, then so be it... Of course I believe there's other ways, better ways, but for now not having Season Pass for BF II and Titanfall 2 is a good start.

Again, if they are in a desperate situation and that is why they sell themselves, they might not see a diffrent choice. They have employees to take care off.

The 'ire' comes from the fact that the publishers could theoretically be a nourishing influence on the studio, but more often than not isn't.

Oh boy. I seem to have royally pissed you off. It was honestly not my intention.

I think you should probably reread my comment as well, because you seem to have already had a conversation with me in your head and decided how it went.

No, aside from the thing I literally already said in my comment, I was not going to say any of those things because I'm not interested in childish fanwars. I have not stake in Bioware. Heck I haven't even played Mass Effect. And I honestly did think that most of the games you listed aside from ME3 launched to critical acclaim and at least satisfaction of fans. I know fan reaction to DA II was a little tepid, but they corrected with DA:I.

As for Andromeda, I've already covered how it got to be the mess it is, so in that case I really don't see the studio at fault. Or with the majority of the fault.

My 'naive' comment was in regards to 'bioware ruins their franchises', wich EA certainly had a hand in especially in Andromedas case. And yes, I was using hyperbole to accentuate the point, wich I'm sure you understood so no need to be so offended at it. If the studios were really free enough in their decisions to mess up games as bad as they have out of their own incompetence, then EA as a competent publisher should have either cancelled the project, handed it to another studio or given them more time to fix it instead of forcing them to push it out unfinished (or, you know, not handed them a project they weren't ready for in the frist place).

You seemed to me to be sour on Bioware for some reason and excusing EA for being a bad publisher in favor of blaming them, when to me it is pretty clear that they've been pushed at least into their current situation by EA, when they were on a good track. That's how your comment read, to me. I might not have worded it correctly when I used 'good-guy EA' as shorthand for that, but it wasn't with malicious intent.

Look, I did not want to get into a fight, but you gave me an edgy comment and I answered in fashion, wich on reflection maybe I shouldn't have done. I'm honestly sorry if I somehow offended you that was not my intention. I was just honestly puzzled by your initial comment and its mode of delivery.

Personally, Activision, and Take Two certainly don't get a free pass from me and neitehr does Square enix for what they did to Deus EX, but that is not what this topic was about. Personally I find GTA dreadfully boring. But that is also beside the point.

What I'm criticising here is how fresh and creative ideas get snuffed-out in favor of trend-chasing. Rockstar made a great game with GTA by all (but my :P) accounts and take two propositioned them to make an online that could make them even more money, wich they did. And it probably felt fresh in GTA and Rockstar made it work with the concept of the game at large.

But certain publishers see this success and think every game has to be a GTA like seller now, completely neglecting the concept of medium and even high profits in favor of chasing ultra profits. It's not a healthy system. And to an exent, yes it's incompenent because they are sacrificing medum profits in an attempt at much higher profits, wich they will not achieve because the golden goose has already been slain. Ultimately they're also sacrificing their chance at the biggest profits, because they're killing innovation. EA only had an actual COD competitor, something they've been chasing for years, once they reluctantly let the team run with a creative risk with BF 1. Did it outsell COD? No, but people took notice and it got close.

I'm not saying that some studios don't need oversight, or more open communications, or more realistic deadlines. But there is a diffrence between managing a studio, while letting it do what it is good at and forcing them to take on projects they cannot fullfill of have no expertise or passion for. Not to mention literally killing a games balancing in favor of microtransactions.

I can not agree on BFII that lootbox chase with p2w was one of the worst management meddles in recent history and while you might be glad to be rid of the season pass (wich I agree is bull) the alternative is not better in any way shape or form, imo.

"Oh boy. I seem to have royally pissed you off. It was honestly not my intention."

Uh not really, I don't think my comment sounds pissed off at all. It's ok. 

"I think you should probably reread my comment as well, because you seem to have already had a conversation with me in your head and decided how it went."

What? I'm literally replying to your exact wording. This seems like a very lazy "it's actually the opposite way around!" logic, but whatever, I could be wrong, maybe you're right. 

"No, aside from the thing I literally already said in my comment,"

Literally ALL my replies are of things you literally said, and they're not interpretations. Maybe over-explanations, but that's just because I don't want to get a reply of derivative arguments that I could nip in the butt before hand.

"I was not going to say any of those things because I'm not interested in childish fanwars"

Well, I mean, you are the one that said I was playing "good guy EA", which is a pretty childish fanwar simplification to make. But neither am I, so i'm glad we could agree.  

"My 'naive' comment was in regards to 'bioware ruins their franchises', wich EA certainly had a hand in especially in Andromedas case. And yes, I was using hyperbole to accentuate the point, wich I'm sure you understood so no need to be so offended at it."

I'm not offended by it. See, this is the problem with internet arguments. People always deflect responsibility for claims by saying "it's just the internet, don't get offended". I'm not offended, I just think the statements are irritating in that they're dishonest. I said bioware ruins their franchises, sure, but every other line shows that I give credibility to EA when they fuck up. Because surely it's a toxic dynamic, but the developer is as fault as well as the publisher. Not offended, just slightly annoyed.

"You seemed to me to be sour on Bioware for some reason and excusing EA for being a bad publisher in favor of blaming them, when to me it is pretty clear that they've been pushed at least into their current situation by EA, when they were on a good track."

Well, that was a very odd interpretation to make right off the bat. Nothing in my comment even implies that. I like Bioware, although mostly just Dragon Age Origins, but still. I think you would either have to be really defensive of a company in order to make that kind of conclusion, or you'd have to be really fixated on one narrative. I don't know though, maybe it's just a genuine misunderstanding. I'm just talking about how the markets received their recent projects, not my own personal feelings on the projects. In fact, let me go out on a limb to say something that might "discredit" my argument : I haven't even played their recent games. Like you, I'm making a point based on market reception and the fact that they're the developers of those badly received games. I'm sure some people will say that instantly makes me an ar-tard or makes my argument wrong, I don't see why though, I'm clearly talking from a generalized perspective of the opinions of the market and I don't see why you could defend a game without having played it but can't criticize it using the same lack of experience. I'm not even saying Andromeda or DA2 or The Old Republic are definitively bad, maybe they're underrated masterpieces and I just need to play them. But from what the general public seems to think, they are pretty poor games and honestly after four strikes, I'm thinking it's a little more complicated than a two letter word explanation.  Oh, I did play Mass Effect 3, though. That game was meh. Not bad but pretty mediocre. 

"Look, I did not want to get into a fight, but you gave me an edgy comment and I answered in fashion, wich on reflection maybe I shouldn't have done. I'm honestly sorry if I somehow offended you that was not my intention. I was just honestly puzzled by your initial comment and its mode of delivery."

Oh I never considered it fighting, I considered it debating with a few too many personal conclusions made. Honestly though, my comment isn't edgy, at all. Like literally, I worded it just to make sure it seemed like genuine constructive speculation about the company. I even used open ended wording to make sure it didn't look like I was some asshole troll hating on Bioware( "But so much of Bioware's controversy are things that may or may not be the fault of the publisher. I have a very hard time believing that all of it, or even a majority of it, is EA's fault", and "It's open to interpretation") . 

This makes me think that the only reason it was "edgy" was because it was an opinion not previously expressed. If the norm is to instantly blame the publishers for everything, than it must be "edgy" to "hate" on Bioware. No, i'm simply saying they have a part in their failure, arguably a pretty big part. I should say that I do think a lot of the fault or even most of it is on EA(I keep flopping on "majority" because we genuinely don't know and probably never will). But I'm not going to say it's just EA. Honestly, I never got into Bioware's franchises enough to have a genuine "grudge" against them anyways. If you want to see a disenfranchised fan who has a grudge against them, look up Rich Evans. lol.

This is why I tried not to argue for a few weeks. This site ... man ... it can never be simple  

Sorry but not in my opinion. I absolutely loved DAO...one of the best games I ever played.

I replayed DAO and DA2 including DLCs in anticipation, before starting DAI. I still can't believe how incredibly disappointed I was with DAI. It was the worst disappointment I ever had with a game in my 35 years of gaming.

The world was huge and beautiful but ultimately feeling empty and lifeless , the characters and writing were bland and only a shadow of DAO, the fighting system was dumbed down and casualised. The quests were full of fetch quests and tedious and boring.

I couldn't even bring myself to finish it after 80 or so hours. Still can't believe how anyone could award it GOTY that year, Granted it was a very weak year, but still. Especially the writing and NPCs were SOOOO TERRIBLE. AAAARGH

Microtransactions had nothing to do with it!

So happy The Witcher 3 saved me a year later.

Looks fine. Will wait for it to come out.

Uff - I was referring to this with the comment in regards how you seemed to have already decided my replies.:

I'm talking about Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, The Old Republic, Mass Effect Andromeda. You know ... a huge majority of their catalog since 2011? I'm sure your reply will be "but but metacritic reviews!" or "but people liked ME3 just not the ending!" - let's be honest, critic scores have almost never mattered and that's a silly metric. All those games got massive backlash for various reasons, The Old Republic was considered pretty damn mediocre or even disliked when it launched, Andromeda was hated, Dragon Age 2 was hated, Mass Effect 3 I think by in large has gotten MORE dis-favorable as time goes on and more fans seem to not enjoy it's more action oriented approach. That's up for debate, but what's not up for debate is that as a whole - meaning the market opinion - these games were at best considered divisive and mediocre and at worst considered terrible. Not a great track record. And if your reply to that is "Well, that's just like not fair! Only two of those were recieved absolutely terribly!" Well ok, the defense that Bioware is still a good developer literally relies on one game ...

It had nothing to do with lazy, or 'it was the other way around'. I was quite honestly asking you to reread it and maybe consider the additional context I tried to give you with my next comment, but nevermind, it was a misunderstanding.

And with 'the thing I already said' I was referring to: "but people liked ME3 just not the ending!", because even though I didn't phrase it that way, that's essentially what I said in my initial reply to you.

I had no intention of being either deflective or dishonest. I told you that is the way your comment came off to me. If that is not the way you intended you comment to sound, or I read it wrong, thats fine. That first sentence sounded pretty brash to me and colored the way I read the rest of the comment, probably wrongly. I did not consider the rest of your comment carefully contructed, because your first sentence wasn't. Not sure if I'm expressing this right, but basically because of the opening sentence, the rest of the comment came of way diffrent to me than you intended.

And if you dont consider your first sentence brash and think I'm wierd for thinking it is, well, I can't really help that, I can just tell you how I percieved it. *shrugs*

One thing I can assure you of though, is that despite how it might have come off to you, I don't have some pre-fixed narrative or defense mechanism of bioware going on. I already told you I'm personally pretty neutral of them as a company. And haven't even played the majority of their games. I really fail to see how I came off as if I have some agenda going on here, but apparently I did to you. The only agenda I do have, and I'd rather call it an opinion is: 'I don't like EAs business practices and consider them harmful to the industry.'

Maybe you're right and bioware not only had their part (aside from selling out to EA in the first place) in their decline, but the majority of it, but that is not how it seemed to me when I wrote my initial comment in this thread.

I was more going off of what I percieved to be the general consensus on these games. Hence my initial confusion at your comment. But our perceptions of the general consensus seem to be very diffrent. Maybe I'm just undereducated on the topic. I thought I wasn't, but seeing the discrepancy I probably am.

But seeing that you don't get how I possibly could get your comment this wrong, and I don't get how you could possibly deduct what you did from mine. We're obviously both not getting the other right now...:/

All I can say is, no harm was meant.

I could probably respond to some of this and clear things up, but yeah, I guess we could just end this by saying somehow we misinterpreted each other. Cool beans. It's not fun not to have a winner though! 

I’m sure anthem will be fine and all will be good and right in the world. However, if it struggles I would be ticked if EA closed Bioware. They are my favorite studio and one game does not undo all the good they have done.

I’m sure it will be great, it just annoys me that they are even talking about it!😡

So the only way I'm going to get Dragon Age 4 is if Anthem succeeds.......I'm not optimistic