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Forums - Movies Discussion - Everything that didn't make sense in The Last Jedi (Spoilers)

Some good posts here and some things I didn't consider, like how Rey got down to the planet before Kylo even though she left first.
But I'll start by addressing this post first:

Veknoid_Outcast said:

- The map to Luke Skywalker


Did Luke give the map to Lor San Tekka? Or did he discover it? Honestly, I don't know. Maybe someone can chime in. But that's a big difference.

On Wikia it says this: while Lor San Tekka was given a portion of the map by Skywalker.[2]
It seems the source is "Star Wars: The Visual Encyclopedia" But either way, Luke left it behind or chose to not destroy it.

- The treatment of Luke's character

This is the "error" I see most often, but I really don't think it counts. Yes, the conceptualization of Luke in TLJ is different from the conceptualization of Luke in ROTJ. However, 30 years have passed. People change. Seeing Luke grow from a callow teenager to a Jedi knight was great, but did people seriously expect a human being to remain unchanged over the course of three decades? Believe me, this isn't how I saw Luke either, but a character isn't bad or inexplicable just because he's not what you wanted/expected. Some might argue that an unexpected, unconventional take makes the character more interesting.

People can change. But my question is, if a character goes through such an enormous change to the point where their actions are basically the polar opposite of what they used to be, should there be no explanation for how the character reached this point? What was his journey that lead him to (at least for a moment) consider butchering his nephew in his sleep? If a film decides to not show this journey at all, is that good writing?
Rian Johnson chose to leave such a drastic change to our imagination. That's very easy to do, and lazy. I'm not arguing that it isn't interesting. But I want to be able to buy it. Not feel like it doesn't make sense. So he could have given us something. Anything at all. Just off the top of my head, maybe Luke became susceptible to the dark side of the force for a moment, because of Snoke. If I had 12 months to plan out the script, I could probably think of something better. But anything is better than nothing in this case.

Everything I posted here isn't necessarily just plot holes, but things I don't think make sense from a writing perspective.
We can fill in the blanks of those 30 years using our imagination, but there are times when that's the job of the screenwriter. And this would be one of them.

- Holdo not telling anyone her plan

I interpreted this as Holdo telling the plan to senior leadership, and Poe was excluded.

So you agree that Rian Johnson left us having to guess what her motive was? Ok but why not just tell us?
We could have had a scene where she tells Leia that "we had reports of a mole in our ranks, so we didn't want to risk leaking the plans." After the event was over of course, so that the surprise wouldn't be ruined. But we got none of that, so we are left having to guess why Holdo decided to torment everyone on the ship and make them think that all hope was lost and they were all going to die, when in reality she did have a plan.

But you skipped the most important thing I mentioned. Why did she not at least tell Poe once he staged the mutiny? Why did she prefer to let it escalate to violence? She could have pulled him aside and filled him in to avoid having a blaster war onboard the ship. She could have failed to take it back, and who knows what kind of orders Poe would have issued then, and put them in even more danger.

- Rose saving Finn

I'm not sure how she caught up. So I'll give you that one. Honestly, the bigger problem is that Finn should have died. That would have been a great ending to his arc. I'm not sure what he's supposed to do in the next one.

For Holdo, I dunno. Maybe they needed a human at the helm to respond if anything went wrong. Maybe it's a resistance tradition for captains to go down with their ships -- we see this happen earlier. Maybe everyone was in a tense, life-or-death situation and wasn't thinking straight.
Star Wars has always played fast and loose with space.

Yeah if this was a list of things I don't like about Last Jedi, I would have mentioned that as well about Finn in that scene. But that's just my preference. What doesn't make sense to me however is saving him while trying to relay the message of "killing enemies with love" and "not sacrificing the ones we love... but it's ok if Holdo and Luke sacrifice themselves." Not to mention how they got out of there without being shot, as if no one from the Empire saw that there was a ship about to kamikaze into their cannon.

As for Holdo, yeah we don't know. It turned out well because she ended up using warp speed to take out the enemy. But she didn't stay on the ship because of that. She clearly hadn't thought about it yet, because she let many of her friends get shot down one by one before she realized that she could do it. And it looked cool and all, but why hasn't anyone ever done this before? It cut right through the enemy shields and ship like butter.

- Rey's parents, and her lack of training

Rey's parentage was the right move, I think. Weren't folks tired of every important person in a galaxy of thousands of planets being either a Skywalker or a Solo?

Lack of training, I will give you. I think you can justify the fight at the end of TFA because Ben was totally unhinged after killing his father and bleeding out from a shot from a weapon that had, earlier in the movie, thrown Stormtroopers back 5 yards.

But she gets even stronger in TLJ. It's just boring. She's boring. I want a hero with a flaw. What is Rey's flaw? Missing her parents? For me, Kylo is by far the more interesting, conflicted character.

I didn't have a problem with her parents either, but after seeing the first film, where she beat Kylo, I figured she either had some training and her memory had been wiped, or she had some special lineage that could explain it.
And yeah, Rey's journey in this film doesn't really take her anywhere, except back to where she started. She always does the right thing, and doesn't experience any real dilemma. But that would belong to a list of "things I didn't like".

- Why didn't Luke tell anyone that he was a projection/hologram?

Maybe the act of facing down The First Order and surviving a imperial barrage is more inspirational if the onlookers think you're really there? I don't have any problems with this.

But I'm talking about things that don't make sense from a writing perspective. As in what was Luke thinking? He was not thinking about the audience. Because they don't exist to him.
There's a difference between pleasing the audience, and maintaining a story that makes sense. You should not do the former without the latter.

- The first mainline Star Wars film without a lightsaber duel

I LOVED this. I appreciate a movie subverting expectations and forging its own path.

Well I stand corrected then. Didn't think there was a demand for this.

- Snoke is so powerful and such an evil mastermind

Snoke is just a crummy villain/character design and I'm glad he's gone 
But seriously, his death proves his overconfidence and Kylo's raw power/ability to hide his true feelings.

Which is interesting. The man-child who bursts into a tantrum at any given moment, (the very second Rey hesitated to join the Dark side he started screaming "No, you're STILL HOLDING ON!" And moments later he did the same when he saw Luke.) was able to mask his emotions in a way that even someone as powerful and confident as Snoke couldn't sense it at all...
That's... I don't know? I guess it's ok. A bit weird, but it was the least of my concerns from the list.

- What happened to the Knighst of Ren?

Maybe they'll be in Episode IX, maybe they were out terrorizing another pocket of the galaxy .

That one isn't a closed chapter, so we will see.
I'm just per-emptively putting that out there in case it's not addressed in Epi 9.

I regret that legitimate criticism of the movie is being conflated with inconsequential details.

I don't know if the majority of what I've said is inconsequential. It's not too much to ask to be able to plausibly conceive what Luke could have been thinking when he went out to buy them time, without telling them that.

Last edited by Hiku - on 09 January 2018

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Surprised you didn't really go into the whole "Lightspeed Kamikaze" thing. Unless there is some explanation for it that I am not aware of, that pretty much breaks the entire universe.



Hiku said: 
Veknoid_Outcast said:

- The map to Luke Skywalker


Did Luke give the map to Lor San Tekka? Or did he discover it? Honestly, I don't know. Maybe someone can chime in. But that's a big difference.

On Wikia it says this: while Lor San Tekka was given a portion of the map by Skywalker.[2]
I can't really see where the source of that statement is going when I click the link. But either way, Luke left it behind or chose to not destroy it.

Maybe he had a change of heart? Maybe he wanted the right person to find him? I don't really know. I don't think it changes my enjoyment of either movie in a meaningful way, regardless.

- The treatment of Luke's character

This is the "error" I see most often, but I really don't think it counts. Yes, the conceptualization of Luke in TLJ is different from the conceptualization of Luke in ROTJ. However, 30 years have passed. People change. Seeing Luke grow from a callow teenager to a Jedi knight was great, but did people seriously expect a human being to remain unchanged over the course of three decades? Believe me, this isn't how I saw Luke either, but a character isn't bad or inexplicable just because he's not what you wanted/expected. Some might argue that an unexpected, unconventional take makes the character more interesting.

People can change. But my question is, if a character goes through such an enormous change to the point where their actions are basically the polar opposite of what they used to be, should there be no explanation for how the character reached this point? What was his journey that lead him to (at least for a moment) consider butchering his nephew in his sleep? If a film decides to not show this journey at all, is that good writing?
Rian Johnson chose to leave such a drastic change to our imagination. That's very easy to do, and lazy. I'm not arguing that it isn't interesting. But I want to be able to buy it. Not feel like it doesn't make sense. So he could have given us something. Anything at all. Just off the top of my head, maybe Luke became susceptible to the dark side of the force for a moment, because of Snoke. If I had 12 months to plan out the script, I could probably think of something better. But anything is better than nothing in this case.

Everything I posted here isn't necessarily just plot holes, but things I don't think make sense from a writing perspective.

There IS an explanation. Johnson spends a lot of time on the island, explaining how Luke got to this lowly state. This is one of the most fleshed out characterizations in the whole movie. We learn that he lost faith in the Jedi way, that he thinks the Force belongs to no man and no institution, that his own legendary status inspired the wrong kind of hero worship among others. Luke pondering violence against someone he was in the process of mentoring/rescuing isn't that crazy. Remember in ROTJ when Luke flew off the handle and tried to hack Vader to death when Vader even suggested messing with Leia? Is it that wild to think Luke would react violently after seeing premonitions of all his loved ones in pain?

- Holdo not telling anyone her plan

I interpreted this as Holdo telling the plan to senior leadership, and Poe was excluded.

So you agree that Rian Johnson left us having to guess what her motive was? Ok but why not just tell us?
We could have had a scene where she tells Leia that "we had reports of a mole in our ranks, so we didn't want to risk leaking the plans." But we got none of that, so we are left having to guess why Holdo decided to torment everyone on the ship and make them think that all hope was lost and they were all going to die, when in reality she did have a plan.

But you skipped the most important thing I mentioned. Why did she not at least tell Poe once he staged the mutiny? Why did she prefer to let it escalate to violence?

Well, to maintain secrecy. Military compartmentalization. You ask why Holdo wouldn't tell Poe about the mission. Yet later in the movie the hacker overhears Finn telling Poe about the mission, which indirectly leads to the hacker offering up that information to the First Order, and almost destroying the Resistance outright. The less people who know about a life-or-death mission the fewer opportunities for the secrets of the mission to escape, as they did later in the movie.

- Rose saving Finn

I'm not sure how she caught up. So I'll give you that one. Honestly, the bigger problem is that Finn should have died. That would have been a great ending to his arc. I'm not sure what he's supposed to do in the next one.

For Holdo, I dunno. Maybe they needed a human at the helm to respond if anything went wrong. Maybe it's a resistance tradition for captains to go down with their ships -- we see this happen earlier. Maybe everyone was in a tense, life-or-death situation and wasn't thinking straight.
Star Wars has always played fast and loose with space.

Yeah if this was a list of things I don't like about Last Jedi, I would have mentioned that as well about Finn in that scene. But that's just my preference. What doesn't make sense to me however is saving him while trying to relay the message of "killing enemies with love" and "not sacrificing the ones we love... but it's ok if Holdo and Luke sacrifice themselves." Not to mention how they got out of there without being shot, as if no one from the Empire saw that there was a ship about to kamikaze into their cannon.

As for Holdo, yeah we don't know. It turned out well because she ended up using warp speed to take out the enemy. But she didn't stay on the ship because of that. She clearly hadn't thought about it yet, because she let many of her friends get shot down one by one before she realized that she could do it. And it looked cool and all, but why hasn't anyone ever done this before? It cut right through the enemy shields and ship like butter.

The ending of that sequence was a mistake, we agree on that.

- Rey's parents, and her lack of training

Rey's parentage was the right move, I think. Weren't folks tired of every important person in a galaxy of thousands of planets being either a Skywalker or a Solo?

Lack of training, I will give you. I think you can justify the fight at the end of TFA because Ben was totally unhinged after killing his father and bleeding out from a shot from a weapon that had, earlier in the movie, thrown Stormtroopers back 5 yards.

But she gets even stronger in TLJ. It's just boring. She's boring. I want a hero with a flaw. What is Rey's flaw? Missing her parents? For me, Kylo is by far the more interesting, conflicted character.

I didn't have a problem with her parents either, but after seeing the first film, where she beat Kylo, I figured she either had some training and her memory had been wiped, or she had some special lineage that could explain it.
And yeah, Rey's journey in this film doesn't really take her anywhere, except back to where she started. She always does the right thing, and doesn't experience any real dilemma. But that would belong to a list of "things I didn't like".

Yeah, Rey needs a dark side. I would have liked to see her join forces with Kylo in some kind of "gray side" truce, and Episode IX would deal with the consequences of that decision.

- Why didn't Luke tell anyone that he was a projection/hologram?

Maybe the act of facing down The First Order and surviving a imperial barrage is more inspirational if the onlookers think you're really there? I don't have any problems with this.

But I'm talking about things that don't make sense from a writing perspective. As in what was Luke thinking? He was not thinking about the audience. Because they don't exist to him.
There's a difference between pleasing the audience, and maintaining a story that makes sense. You should not do the former without the latter.

The onlookers aren't the audience in my post. They're the remaining resistance fighters, who Luke came to inspire and save. This is Luke's redemption. He had closed himself off from the Force and left the Resistance to die. This is him literally reaching out with the Force, inspiring the Resistance, and distracting its enemies.

- The first mainline Star Wars film without a lightsaber duel

I LOVED this. I appreciate a movie subverting expectations and forging its own path.

Well I stand corrected then. Didn't think there was a demand for this.

After the lightsaber orgies of the prequel trilogy, I'm glad to see more restraint  

- Snoke is so powerful and such an evil mastermind

Snoke is just a crummy villain/character design and I'm glad he's gone 
But seriously, his death proves his overconfidence and Kylo's raw power/ability to hide his true feelings.

Which is interesting. The man-child who bursts into a tantrum at any given moment, (the very second Rey hesitated to join the Dark side he started screaming "No, you're STILL HOLDING ON!" And moments later he did the same when he saw Luke.) was able to mask his emotions in a way that even someone as powerful and confident as Snoke couldn't sense it at all...
That's... I don't know? I guess it's ok. A bit weird, but it was the least of my concerns from the list.

- What happened to the Knighst of Ren?

Maybe they'll be in Episode IX, maybe they were out terrorizing another pocket of the galaxy .

That one isn't a closed chapter, so we will see.
I'm just per-emptively putting that out there in case it's not addressed in Epi 9.

I regret that legitimate criticism of the movie is being conflated with inconsequential details.

I don't know if the majority of what I've said is inconsequential. It's not too much to ask to be able to plausibly conceive what Luke could have been thinking when he went out to buy them time, without telling them that.

I dunno. There are plot holes and leaps of logic in almost any movie, especially movies with laser swords, ghosts, space wizards, FTL technology, and Hayden Christensen.

I don't think the holes in TLJ are crippling, or even distracting. But I totally respect and understand your take, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me.



sundin13 said:
Surprised you didn't really go into the whole "Lightspeed Kamikaze" thing. Unless there is some explanation for it that I am not aware of, that pretty much breaks the entire universe.

Well it's because I'm not entirely sure about the details. I'm not sure if she warped behind the shields, or if lightspeed just cuts through them.
But I suppose either way would make this an extremely useful tool that they could use against the empire. Taking out the Death Star should be a piece of cake.



Luke was right for wanting to kill Kylo. He was a Dark Side user who would destroy everything. He's a little brat that killed Han Solo.

Everything he saw in his vision was correct.

The Skywalkers are a murdering death cult that are a huge plague on the galaxy. Luke and Leia are the only two that aren't giant assholes.

The Jedi don't need to end, but the Skywalkers do. 

I didn't buy that Luke would stay on the island, but that's not really Rian Johnson's fault, JJ Abrams set it up that way. 



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Luke was the hero of the original trilogy - a character that audiences loved and desperately wanted to see more of. Fans waited 30 years to hear about how his story continued. Then we got......that.

I can buy the fact that people change. It seems very unlikely Luke could go from what he was to how he was portrayed in TLJ, but its not impossible.

However, why?

I'm sure you could turn Indiana Jones into someone who hates archaeology and says its all fake, or Neo back to Mr. Anderson who hates technology and believes slavery is the best way. But why? That's not what audiences wanted, and it doesn't make sense with the story. Then it gets praised, by every critic, for not conforming to expectations. Apparently drastically changing characters that people loved and waited decades to see is the ticket to great reviews. Does anyone really think turning Luke into grumpy hermit was the answer to making a good Star Wars movie? That this was the best way? That this is what audiences had waited over 30 years for?



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Hiku said:
sundin13 said:
Surprised you didn't really go into the whole "Lightspeed Kamikaze" thing. Unless there is some explanation for it that I am not aware of, that pretty much breaks the entire universe.

Well it's because I'm not entirely sure about the details. I'm not sure if she warped behind the shields, or if lightspeed just cuts through them.
But I suppose either way would make this an extremely useful tool that they could use against the empire. Taking out the Death Star should be a piece of cake.

To me, it looked like she went through them which would imply that object are physical while undergoing lightspeed travel which would break the universe. If you want to be more conservative and say that she warped into them and objects are only physical coming out of light speed, it would still break the universe.

Even if you say that technology wasn't available decades earlier with the original Death Stars, in that very conflict, it seems like they could have done the same thing with their support ships and saved tons of lives, or done the same thing at the beginning of the movie with the bombers and saved tons of lives....



epicurean said:
Luke was the hero of the original trilogy - a character that audiences loved and desperately wanted to see more of. Fans waited 30 years to hear about how his story continued. Then we got......that.

I can buy the fact that people change. It seems very unlikely Luke could go from what he was to how he was portrayed in TLJ, but its not impossible.

However, why?

I'm sure you could turn Indiana Jones into someone who hates archaeology and says its all fake, or Neo back to Mr. Anderson who hates technology and believes slavery is the best way. But why? That's not what audiences wanted, and it doesn't make sense with the story. Then it gets praised, by every critic, for not conforming to expectations. Apparently drastically changing characters that people loved and waited decades to see is the ticket to great reviews. Does anyone really think turning Luke into grumpy hermit was the answer to making a good Star Wars movie? That this was the best way? That this is what audiences had waited over 30 years for?

A long time ago, Sylvester Stallone made a Rocky film were the hero of all of the previous films, Rocky Balboa, was penniless. He had brain damage and his son didn't love him. Stallone always regretted that and went back to make another Rocky film to fix that mistake. He said something like "Why did I think audiences would want to see their hero in such a dark place?" 

That's how I feel about TLJ.

I'm all for character evolution and I'm even more in favor of a great story. So far, two of my childhood heroes are dead and the story isn't really enjoyable or compelling at all.



mZuzek loves Smeags. 😢

sundin13 said:
Hiku said:

Well it's because I'm not entirely sure about the details. I'm not sure if she warped behind the shields, or if lightspeed just cuts through them.
But I suppose either way would make this an extremely useful tool that they could use against the empire. Taking out the Death Star should be a piece of cake.

To me, it looked like she went through them which would imply that object are physical while undergoing lightspeed travel which would break the universe. If you want to be more conservative and say that she warped into them and objects are only physical coming out of light speed, it would still break the universe.

Even if you say that technology wasn't available decades earlier with the original Death Stars, in that very conflict, it seems like they could have done the same thing with their support ships and saved tons of lives, or done the same thing at the beginning of the movie with the bombers and saved tons of lives....

Regardless, its going to make every future Star Wars space battle VERY interesting. Will they use this strategy constantly going forward? My guess is they just completely ignore it going forward, with people just yelling "send an x wing through light speed through it!" over and over in the audience. 



Owner of PS4 Pro, Xbox One, Switch, PS Vita, and 3DS

d21lewis said:
epicurean said:
Luke was the hero of the original trilogy - a character that audiences loved and desperately wanted to see more of. Fans waited 30 years to hear about how his story continued. Then we got......that.

I can buy the fact that people change. It seems very unlikely Luke could go from what he was to how he was portrayed in TLJ, but its not impossible.

However, why?

I'm sure you could turn Indiana Jones into someone who hates archaeology and says its all fake, or Neo back to Mr. Anderson who hates technology and believes slavery is the best way. But why? That's not what audiences wanted, and it doesn't make sense with the story. Then it gets praised, by every critic, for not conforming to expectations. Apparently drastically changing characters that people loved and waited decades to see is the ticket to great reviews. Does anyone really think turning Luke into grumpy hermit was the answer to making a good Star Wars movie? That this was the best way? That this is what audiences had waited over 30 years for?

A long time ago, Sylvester Stallone made a Rocky film were the hero of all of the previous films, Rocky Balboa, was penniless. He had brain damage and his son didn't love him. Stallone always regretted that and went back to make another Rocky film to fix that mistake. He said something like "Why did I think audiences would want to see their hero in such a dark place?" 

That's how I feel about TLJ.

I'm all for character evolution and I'm even more in favor of a great story. So far, two of my childhood heroes are dead and the story isn't really enjoyable or compelling at all.

Which Rocky was that? Did it get good reviews?

I just can't understand how every-single-reviewer were ok with this decision, and even praising it. During the movie I kept thinking to myself that something had to change by the end of the movie that brought it all into context, or made sense, or whatever, because of how glowing the reviews had been. When it was over and I was walking out I just couldn't fathom how the reviews had been so positive. How was this viewed with universal praise? 



Owner of PS4 Pro, Xbox One, Switch, PS Vita, and 3DS