Forums - General Discussion - 2017 Year of Sexual Harassment

o_O.Q said:
VGPolyglot said:

"do you think we should just accept it?"

it scares me that you think we can do otherwise

assuming this is in reply to me stating that it scares me that he thinks we can educate people to not be self serving occasionally, what argument do you have?

 

how do you propose we force people to serve the needs of their community over their own needs at all times?

not only is this idea silly but i don't even think it'd be desirable, sometimes people should focus more on themselves than others, particularly when they are in a weak position comparatively

 

to give an example that strikes more at home i've seen people on this forum joke often about using pornography, which is a selfish act that leads to the exploitation of women, what are your thoughts on that? should everyone be prevented from using pornography so women are not exploited?

Pornography in and of itself isn't sexist against women I'd say, but the way the industry is run definitely is. And preventing people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem, much like banning drugs and forcing people into jail for possession and use of them hasn't worked.



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VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

assuming this is in reply to me stating that it scares me that he thinks we can educate people to not be self serving occasionally, what argument do you have?

 

how do you propose we force people to serve the needs of their community over their own needs at all times?

not only is this idea silly but i don't even think it'd be desirable, sometimes people should focus more on themselves than others, particularly when they are in a weak position comparatively

 

to give an example that strikes more at home i've seen people on this forum joke often about using pornography, which is a selfish act that leads to the exploitation of women, what are your thoughts on that? should everyone be prevented from using pornography so women are not exploited?

Pornography in and of itself isn't sexist against women I'd say, but the way the industry is run definitely is. And preventing people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem, much like banning drugs and forcing people into jail for possession and use of them hasn't worked.

lol are you being serious right now? pornography isn't sexist?

pornography reduces women down to sexual objects for the consumption of men primarily, there is pretty much no other field i can think of that's more sexist

 

" preventing people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem"

isn't going to solve which problem?

destroying the pornography industry destroys the exploitation of women perpetuated in that industry

 

i didn't say preventing people from watching pornography, i'm talking about destroying the industry which can easily be done by stopping people from being able to build websites that sell pornography

if people have the medium through which they distribute pornography destroyed then the industry would collapse, you can't compare that to the drug trade since porn relies on websites that are published for public consumption



o_O.Q said:
VGPolyglot said:

Pornography in and of itself isn't sexist against women I'd say, but the way the industry is run definitely is. And preventing people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem, much like banning drugs and forcing people into jail for possession and use of them hasn't worked.

lol are you being serious right now? pornography isn't sexist?

pornography reduces women down to sexual objects for the consumption of men primarily, there is pretty much no other field i can think of that's more sexist

 

" preventing people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem"

isn't going to solve which problem?

destroying the pornography industry destroys the exploitation of women perpetuated in that industry

 

i didn't say preventing people from watching pornography, i'm talking about destroying the industry which can easily be done by stopping people from being able to build websites that sell pornography

if people have the medium through which they distribute pornography destroyed then the industry would collapse, you can't compare that to the drug trade since porn relies on websites that are published for public consumption

Well, I do have to correct you here, since we can already see that merely the statement of pornography means male-female sex. There is also male-male pornography. I said pornography isn't in and of itself sexist, because one, women don't even have to be involved, and 2, it can be done with the complete consent of the woman, like amateur porn. Of course though, the way the industry works is definitely sexist. I also say stopping people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem, because much like drugs, there will be a black market of it, and then women themselves will end up getting punished for participating in it, like they do for prostitution, so it will not help them.



VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

lol are you being serious right now? pornography isn't sexist?

pornography reduces women down to sexual objects for the consumption of men primarily, there is pretty much no other field i can think of that's more sexist

 

" preventing people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem"

isn't going to solve which problem?

destroying the pornography industry destroys the exploitation of women perpetuated in that industry

 

i didn't say preventing people from watching pornography, i'm talking about destroying the industry which can easily be done by stopping people from being able to build websites that sell pornography

if people have the medium through which they distribute pornography destroyed then the industry would collapse, you can't compare that to the drug trade since porn relies on websites that are published for public consumption

Well, I do have to correct you here, since we can already see that merely the statement of pornography means male-female sex. There is also male-male pornography. I said pornography isn't in and of itself sexist, because one, women don't even have to be involved, and 2, it can be done with the complete consent of the woman, like amateur porn. Of course though, the way the industry works is definitely sexist. I also say stopping people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem, because much like drugs, there will be a black market of it, and then women themselves will end up getting punished for participating in it, like they do for prostitution, so it will not help them.

 

"Well, I do have to correct you here, since we can already see that merely the statement of pornography means male-female sex. There is also male-male pornography. "

 

come on, we are being general here, we both know that 90% of the porn industry is based on the exploitation of women

 

"I said pornography isn't in and of itself sexist, because one, women don't even have to be involved, and 2, it can be done with the complete consent of the woman"

 

you can consent to being exploited and having sexism used against you, consent given has nothing to do with whether something is sexist or not

and as i said above the porn industry is 90% about exploiting women, gay - gay male porn is an extreme outlier in the porn industry

 

"I also say stopping people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem"

 

this is a strawman, i said destroying the channels that distribute pornography, which would be very very easy, china for example has their infrastructure set up in such a way that many popular sites like twitter are blocked

 

"because much like drugs, there will be a black market of it, and then women themselves will end up getting punished for participating in it, like they do for prostitution, so it will not help them."

 

i didn't say anything about punishing women for having their bodies recorded, i said destroying the channels that widely distribute porn, it wouldn't completely be eradicated of course but at least the exploitation would massively be reduced



o_O.Q said:
VGPolyglot said:

Well, I do have to correct you here, since we can already see that merely the statement of pornography means male-female sex. There is also male-male pornography. I said pornography isn't in and of itself sexist, because one, women don't even have to be involved, and 2, it can be done with the complete consent of the woman, like amateur porn. Of course though, the way the industry works is definitely sexist. I also say stopping people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem, because much like drugs, there will be a black market of it, and then women themselves will end up getting punished for participating in it, like they do for prostitution, so it will not help them.

 

"Well, I do have to correct you here, since we can already see that merely the statement of pornography means male-female sex. There is also male-male pornography. "

 

come on, we are being general here, we both know that 90% of the porn industry is based on the exploitation of women


"I said pornography isn't in and of itself sexist, because one, women don't even have to be involved, and 2, it can be done with the complete consent of the woman"

 

you can consent to being exploited and having sexism used against you, consent given has nothing to do with whether something is sexist or not

and as i said above the porn industry is 90% about exploiting women, gay - gay male porn is an extreme outlier in the porn industry

 

"I also say stopping people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem"

 

this is a strawman, i said destroying the channels that distribute pornography, which would be very very easy, china for example has their infrastructure set up in such a way that many popular sites like twitter are blocked

 

"because much like drugs, there will be a black market of it, and then women themselves will end up getting punished for participating in it, like they do for prostitution, so it will not help them."

 

i didn't say anything about punishing women for having their bodies recorded, i said destroying the channels that widely distribute porn, it wouldn't completely be eradicated of course but at least the exploitation would massively be reduced.

I said that the porn industry is sexist, so I don't see where the argument is there? You can create porn independent of the porn industry, much in the same way that people make homebrew games. And interesting that you referred to China, considering all of the VPNs that exist that allow you to access blocked sites in China. Exploitation wouldn't be radically reduced because it would still not address the issue of why women are exploited like that in the first place, namely due to their lower economic and societal standing.



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VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

 

"Well, I do have to correct you here, since we can already see that merely the statement of pornography means male-female sex. There is also male-male pornography. "

 

come on, we are being general here, we both know that 90% of the porn industry is based on the exploitation of women


"I said pornography isn't in and of itself sexist, because one, women don't even have to be involved, and 2, it can be done with the complete consent of the woman"

 

you can consent to being exploited and having sexism used against you, consent given has nothing to do with whether something is sexist or not

and as i said above the porn industry is 90% about exploiting women, gay - gay male porn is an extreme outlier in the porn industry

 

"I also say stopping people from watching porn isn't going to solve the problem"

 

this is a strawman, i said destroying the channels that distribute pornography, which would be very very easy, china for example has their infrastructure set up in such a way that many popular sites like twitter are blocked

 

"because much like drugs, there will be a black market of it, and then women themselves will end up getting punished for participating in it, like they do for prostitution, so it will not help them."

 

i didn't say anything about punishing women for having their bodies recorded, i said destroying the channels that widely distribute porn, it wouldn't completely be eradicated of course but at least the exploitation would massively be reduced.

I said that the porn industry is sexist, so I don't see where the argument is there? You can create porn independent of the porn industry, much in the same way that people make homebrew games. And interesting that you referred to China, considering all of the VPNs that exist that allow you to access blocked sites in China. Exploitation wouldn't be radically reduced because it would still not address the issue of why women are exploited like that in the first place, namely due to their lower economic and societal standing.

 

"You can create porn independent of the porn industry"

the point i'm making is that websites can be destroyed or prevented from being put up... as i keep repeating porn relies on an easily accessible medium - destroy that and it'll take a big hit

 

" And interesting that you referred to China"

it was a poor example yes

 

"Exploitation wouldn't be radically reduced because it would still not address the issue of why women are exploited like that in the first place, namely due to their lower economic and societal standing."

women in developed countries as i said previously make more in their 20s than men in the same age range which is also the most common age range for porn actresses, i'd appreciate it if you didn't keep repeating claims that have been debunked



StarOcean said:
Flilix said:

Do you recall what they said to defend pedophilia?

That one not off the top of my head but 6 months ago I would've. The others though.. we had a thread where it asked if beastiality is ok and many were ok with it. Racism, check most political threads. Sexism, any thread involving rape. With rape, any thread about rape will have rape defenders. I don't know how to book mark but the rape thing was at least less than 2 months ago. Homocide, you'll see it defended when it comes to threads involving the topic which has come up. Nazism was recently heavily defended when the Charolletesville thread was made. Wellll, I can recall one instance of defending pedophilia off the top of my head but that was more of a implied offense rather than a direct one. Any direct ones have been few and far between thankfully

Well, depending on the meaning of the word, I'd say that pedophilia can be defendable.



o_O.Q said:

"Do you think fighting harassment is going against freedom them?"

1. obviously it is, you are trying to restrict someone from performing an action, what is that defined as?

this (restriction of freedom) obviously has to happen to have a functioning society, but my point is that if taken too far (restriction of freedom) it leads to serious problems

 

"Why bother trying to change anything if suffering is going to happen anyway in the end?"

2. well you try to change things in a fashion that takes into consideration the complexity of a situation and with the understanding that you cannot make things perfect

 

"do you think we should just accept it?"

3. it scares me that you think we can do otherwise

 

"There are many occasions where people would like to be selfish and act for their own benefit, but we've managed to largely eliminate the related problems."

4. if that was the case crime and oppression would not exist, they do because its a fundamental flaw in people and we are also driven to act selfishly because of occasional environmental conditions

i'd say that people routinely act in selfish ways, but the opposite is also true

 

" You haven't. However, you haven't given a single hint as to why we should fight harassment"

5. we should fight harassment because people suffer when exposed to it... i mean i figured that goes without saying but whatever

 

" Would you behave similarly if this discussion was about murder and murder was as common as harassment is"

6. murder is as common as harassment is, its just that most people don't care, look at the middle east and all of the innocent people that have been killed over there to prop up the us economy as an example

 

"Education, yes. Improving consciousness also helps"

7. you think education can cause people to become less self serving? why? tbh in many cases i've noticed the opposite, that the more educated people become, the more they seek to put a gap between themselves and those less fortunate than them

and i'm speaking specifically of education through institutions

 

"because people are more likely to put up a fight like we've already seen."

8. this part i absolutely agree with, we need to teach people to take more personal responsibility for their safety and to fight back when they are facing oppression, i'm absolutely in line with this

 

"Anyway, my point was what it seemed like to me because you've been quite unwilling to even try to do anything about the situation."

9. this is a strawman i asked you to propose a viable strategy for eliminating harassment since i personally cannot think of one (and the idea that you can educate people to not be self serving is i think silly ), your proposal that we have would be victims be more proactive about their safety is a measure i think would help the situation

but the problem is that whenever someone proposes that people be more proactive about protecting themselves naive people retort that its "victim blaming" and that all measures must be taken on the attacker side

1. Do you think taking the restrictions too far is necessary to fight harassment? If so, why? I don't see there being any need to take the restrictions too far (and, in fact, I would be opposed to such restrictions if they were necessary).

2. Uh, your point? Do you think the situation is too complex to be solved? What's the problem in solving this particular problem?

3. What makes you think we can't?

4. Your point is blatantly incorrect. If we didn't even try to fight crime, there would be so much more of it. We can and should take actions to reduce unwanted behaviour, because such actions are often effective enough to make lives better.

5. Good to hear, but you might want to consider learning how to express yourself better. Your presentation so far as been extremely one-sided, and you must realize how it makes you seem. I've often seen people have opinions that are opposing to mine, but they're usually pretty quick to acknowledge even the opposing view even if they don't agree.

6. OK, so let's assume we restrict this discussion to developed countries like I intended to (and though I specified that but I guess not). Do you still think they're equally common, and does that change your answer?

7. It seems a lot of people don't even realize what harassment is. Education is sure to help with that, if nothing else. Raising awareness is also important because it makes people see these things more easily, leaving less room for harassers to operate within. If more people are likely to intervene, it's going to make harassment harder and riskier.

8. Sure, I'm OK with that. However, I don't think that should be the main course of action. By assuming such a stance, you essentially blame the victim for not being able to defend themself, lifting the blame from the actual offender. I think this is a point of view that's too often completely silenced, but it does sounds like you're shifting the majority of responsibility to victims.

9. Like I said, this is an area where discussion has been extremely one-sided and of extremely low quality, but it seems there's a good reason for it. As soon as I even hinted at what you said, you jumped onto the bandwagon very eagerly and pretty much twisted my message into yours. My tone was somewhat different, although I don't really disagree with your suggestion either. Your tone sounds almost exactly like victim shaming, and this is probably why the discussion is so one-sided at the moment. Can you see it? Can you see what your tone seems like to others?



Now we just need to get Wright!



Yeah... talk about Cologne in Germany, right?