2017 Year of Sexual Harassment

[o_O.Q]

Zkuq said:

o_O.Q said:

"Do you think fighting harassment is going against freedom them?"

1. obviously it is, you are trying to restrict someone from performing an action, what is that defined as?

this (restriction of freedom) obviously has to happen to have a functioning society, but my point is that if taken too far (restriction of freedom) it leads to serious problems

 

"Why bother trying to change anything if suffering is going to happen anyway in the end?"

2. well you try to change things in a fashion that takes into consideration the complexity of a situation and with the understanding that you cannot make things perfect

 

"do you think we should just accept it?"

3. it scares me that you think we can do otherwise

 

"There are many occasions where people would like to be selfish and act for their own benefit, but we've managed to largely eliminate the related problems."

4. if that was the case crime and oppression would not exist, they do because its a fundamental flaw in people and we are also driven to act selfishly because of occasional environmental conditions

i'd say that people routinely act in selfish ways, but the opposite is also true

 

" You haven't. However, you haven't given a single hint as to why we should fight harassment"

5. we should fight harassment because people suffer when exposed to it... i mean i figured that goes without saying but whatever

 

" Would you behave similarly if this discussion was about murder and murder was as common as harassment is"

6. murder is as common as harassment is, its just that most people don't care, look at the middle east and all of the innocent people that have been killed over there to prop up the us economy as an example

 

"Education, yes. Improving consciousness also helps"

7. you think education can cause people to become less self serving? why? tbh in many cases i've noticed the opposite, that the more educated people become, the more they seek to put a gap between themselves and those less fortunate than them

and i'm speaking specifically of education through institutions

 

"because people are more likely to put up a fight like we've already seen."

8. this part i absolutely agree with, we need to teach people to take more personal responsibility for their safety and to fight back when they are facing oppression, i'm absolutely in line with this

 

"Anyway, my point was what it seemed like to me because you've been quite unwilling to even try to do anything about the situation."

9. this is a strawman i asked you to propose a viable strategy for eliminating harassment since i personally cannot think of one (and the idea that you can educate people to not be self serving is i think silly ), your proposal that we have would be victims be more proactive about their safety is a measure i think would help the situation

but the problem is that whenever someone proposes that people be more proactive about protecting themselves naive people retort that its "victim blaming" and that all measures must be taken on the attacker side

1. Do you think taking the restrictions too far is necessary to fight harassment? If so, why? I don't see there being any need to take the restrictions too far (and, in fact, I would be opposed to such restrictions if they were necessary).

2. Uh, your point? Do you think the situation is too complex to be solved? What's the problem in solving this particular problem?

3. What makes you think we can't?

4. Your point is blatantly incorrect. If we didn't even try to fight crime, there would be so much more of it. We can and should take actions to reduce unwanted behaviour, because such actions are often effective enough to make lives better.

5. Good to hear, but you might want to consider learning how to express yourself better. Your presentation so far as been extremely one-sided, and you must realize how it makes you seem. I've often seen people have opinions that are opposing to mine, but they're usually pretty quick to acknowledge even the opposing view even if they don't agree.

6. OK, so let's assume we restrict this discussion to developed countries like I intended to (and though I specified that but I guess not). Do you still think they're equally common, and does that change your answer?

7. It seems a lot of people don't even realize what harassment is. Education is sure to help with that, if nothing else. Raising awareness is also important because it makes people see these things more easily, leaving less room for harassers to operate within. If more people are likely to intervene, it's going to make harassment harder and riskier.

8. Sure, I'm OK with that. However, I don't think that should be the main course of action. By assuming such a stance, you essentially blame the victim for not being able to defend themself, lifting the blame from the actual offender. I think this is a point of view that's too often completely silenced, but it does sounds like you're shifting the majority of responsibility to victims.

9. Like I said, this is an area where discussion has been extremely one-sided and of extremely low quality, but it seems there's a good reason for it. As soon as I even hinted at what you said, you jumped onto the bandwagon very eagerly and pretty much twisted my message into yours. My tone was somewhat different, although I don't really disagree with your suggestion either. Your tone sounds almost exactly like victim shaming, and this is probably why the discussion is so one-sided at the moment. Can you see it? Can you see what your tone seems like to others?

 

" Do you think taking the restrictions too far is necessary to fight harassment?"

i did not say that, i said that it can happen, how do you think dictators get into power? its generally through promising people security and using that as a means of stripping freedom away from people

the people of our era really need to become acquainted with a proper understanding of the past and human nature, because these things should be obvious, its why books like 1984 exist 

 

"Do you think the situation is too complex to be solved?"

to some degree yes, because the problem at the heart of this is human individuality - the different base drives and tendency to lean towards selfishness  across people

at one level of analysis we've already covered that fact that at different times under different situations people are willing to disregard the rules society places upon them.... does that not add a significant layer of complexity to the problem? then beyond that there are several other factors that i would think again should be obvious to people

 

"What makes you think we can't?"

at this point this conversation is veering off into some bizarre territory - you truly think we can train people to not be selfish and not defy rules?... good luck with that idea

 

""There are many occasions where people would like to be selfish and act for their own benefit, but we've managed to largely eliminate the related problems."

if that was the case crime and oppression would not exist"

" Your point is blatantly incorrect. If we didn't even try to fight crime"

wtf???? where in my post did i claim we don't or shouldn't try to fight crime?...  what i said is that your idea that we've largely managed to eliminate selfish impulses people have that cause harm to others is absurd... the continued existence of crime bears that out

 

"Good to hear, but you might want to consider learning how to express yourself better."

this coming from the guy constantly straw manning me is hilarious

 

"Your presentation so far as been extremely one-sided, and you must realize how it makes you seem. I've often seen people have opinions that are opposing to mine"

well all i can say here is that if you think that all discourse on a particular issue, must come at that issue from the same perspective then you both have a very narrow perspective on issues and you probably aren't likely to be the time type of person to solve complex issues anyway since your pov is going to be contrained

i know that you haven't explicitly stated the above, but its kind of clear that its how you're operating since, for example, you claimed that i must support sexual harassment in some way even though i did not say so - its the sign of someone with a constrained perspective unable to look at things from different angles

 

"but they're usually pretty quick to acknowledge even the opposing view even if they don't agree."

i've stated since the start that harassment is a problem and we should try to reduce it... wtf are you talking about?

 

"Do you still think they're equally common, and does that change your answer?"

well i think comparing the loss of life to something that in some cases is as innocuous as a rude comment is kind of silly... but regardless i have the same attitude about all crime... it must be combated in a rational way with care that we don't end up going too far over to the control end of the spectrum... i gave an example of this when i stated that we could eliminate murder if we kept everyone under surveillance 24/7... but who would want to live like that?

 

"It seems a lot of people don't even realize what harassment is."

i really don't have much to say on this... i think the education argument is to be frank a dumb argument

 

"By assuming such a stance, you essentially blame the victim for not being able to defend themself"

i've said this before in this thread and i'll say it again... ascribing blame over problems that arise over seeking viable solutions is the domain of an idiot

what the focus of dealing with these issues should be is solutions, solutions, solutions

i think if more women walked around with mace, a lot of the problems with physical violence perpetuated against women would decrease

do you understand why women in the middle east often have to be escorted by men? its because that society regards women as children unable to be independent and protect themselves... i thought the idea now is to acknowledge the autonomy of women? i mean even further down you state this :

"If more people are likely to intervene, it's going to make harassment harder and riskier."

by "people" here you pretty much mean men

anyway regardless i think that a focus on women taking more responsibility for their safety would result in better results than teaching people something that the vast majority of people who aren't mentally ill understood since they were very young

 

" but it does sounds like you're shifting the majority of responsibility to victims."

for taking care of themselves? absolutely... again, this is not the middle east and therefore we value personal autonomy

 

" our tone sounds almost exactly like victim shaming"

by stating that the primary person responsible for someone's safety and well being is themselves?.... well if that's victim shaming or blaming or whatever silly buzzword is being used at present then i guess the term fits me

 

"Can you see what your tone seems like to others?"

yeah i understand your perspective, and its important that you come to realise that its unrealistic... again, you cannot educate the drive for acting in selfish or self serving ways out of people and your whole solution to this problem is predicated on that idea