"I don't have much love for focusing on minor problems when there are bigger problems to worry about."
1. many people are claiming that this is the main issue at the heart of all oppression and that we should therefore topple all hierarchies and lock everyone to one class, look around you with open eyes and you will see it for yourself
"Should we just stop caring about it then?"
2. as i said we do not live in a perfect world and humans are themselves imperfect, i think that ultimately we have to make strike a balance between security and freedom, if we try to make things too secure we end up with hell and if we allow too much freedom the same applies
my concern is that people are starting to hold very very naive ideas about these types of situations and are starting to veer towards the security side too much
3. a utopia where no suffering happens is not possible
"So what do you think makes people harass others?"
4. i think our behavior generally falls into two categories - altruistic and selfish
some times we lean more one way and sometimes we lean more the other way
i think harassment occurs when people lean more towards the selfish end of the motivational spectrum - putting their needs above those of their victims
i think that's one aspect but there are other factors
"Are you implying that women are drawn to their (male) bosses because they have power?"
5. that happens in some situations occasionally yes
"I don't know, but you do seem to want to defend harassment for some reason"
6. where have i said that harassment is justifiable?
i think murder is a serious problem, what can we do to end murder completely? i personally don't know of any way besides constant surveillance of everyone at all times, does this mean that i think murder is justifiable? what a silly argument
" You don't seem to think anything can, or maybe even should, be done about the situation."
7. can you propose a solution to the problem of people putting their needs above those of others? i can't myself and i think i understand people very well
what solutions do you have in mind for this problem in general? the education argument?
"Perhaps someone you know is a harasser"
8. i don't know anyone that is a harasser and i have never been accused of harassment personally
1. I haven't seen any of this. I have seen some people claim that harassment requires power to be involved, however. What you're saying sounds a lot like communism, and I rarely see that kind of stuff (and don't take any of it seriously because communism doesn't work in practice because it works so strongly against human nature).
2. Do you think fighting harassment is going against freedom them? That is what your answer seems to imply.
3. And this is clearly the wrong place for this argument. It's a valid argument, but if you use it this carelessly, you might as well apply it to everything. Why bother trying to change anything if suffering is going to happen anyway in the end? Why do you think we can't get rid of a significant amount of harassing?
4. I'd say this is correct, but do you think we should just accept it? There are many occasions where people would like to be selfish and act for their own benefit, but we've managed to largely eliminate the related problems.
5. Do you think such situations are in the majority, or are cases where women are not drawn to their bosses in the majority?
6. You haven't. However, you haven't given a single hint as to why we should fight harassment, instead only giving reasons why we shouldn't. Would you behave similarly if this discussion was about murder and murder was as common as harassment is, or would you have a stance that we must do something? Remember, murder and harassment are in a very different situation right now: there are relatively few murders in developed countries, whereas harassment is an extremely common issue.
7. Education, yes. Improving consciousness also helps, because people are more likely to put up a fight like we've already seen. As the issue gets more recognition, more people will learn to behave properly, more people learn to fight it properly, more organizations will start caring about it, and thus the situation improves as there are less harassers and less room for harassment. I don't think there's a quick remedy, but we should do whatever steps we can to get forward. This isn't a situation that's going to change even in a few years; I'm expecting the duration to be closer to a generation.
8. Good. Anyway, my point was what it seemed like to me because you've been quite unwilling to even try to do anything about the situation.
" I haven't seen any of this"
"Do you think fighting harassment is going against freedom them?"
obviously it is, you are trying to restrict someone from performing an action, what is that defined as?
this (restriction of freedom) obviously has to happen to have a functioning society, but my point is that if taken too far (restriction of freedom) it leads to serious problems
"Why bother trying to change anything if suffering is going to happen anyway in the end?"
well you try to change things in a fashion that takes into consideration the complexity of a situation and with the understanding that you cannot make things perfect
"do you think we should just accept it?"
it scares me that you think we can do otherwise
"There are many occasions where people would like to be selfish and act for their own benefit, but we've managed to largely eliminate the related problems."
if that was the case crime and oppression would not exist, they do because its a fundamental flaw in people and we are also driven to act selfishly because of occasional environmental conditions
i'd say that people routinely act in selfish ways, but the opposite is also true
" You haven't. However, you haven't given a single hint as to why we should fight harassment"
we should fight harassment because people suffer when exposed to it... i mean i figured that goes without saying but whatever
" Would you behave similarly if this discussion was about murder and murder was as common as harassment is"
murder is as common as harassment is, its just that most people don't care, look at the middle east and all of the innocent people that have been killed over there to prop up the us economy as an example
"Education, yes. Improving consciousness also helps"
you think education can cause people to become less self serving? why? tbh in many cases i've noticed the opposite, that the more educated people become, the more they seek to put a gap between themselves and those less fortunate than them
and i'm speaking specifically of education through institutions
"because people are more likely to put up a fight like we've already seen."
this part i absolutely agree with, we need to teach people to take more personal responsibility for their safety and to fight back when they are facing oppression, i'm absolutely in line with this
"Anyway, my point was what it seemed like to me because you've been quite unwilling to even try to do anything about the situation."
this is a strawman i asked you to propose a viable strategy for eliminating harassment since i personally cannot think of one (and the idea that you can educate people to not be self serving is i think silly ), your proposal that we have would be victims be more proactive about their safety is a measure i think would help the situation
but the problem is that whenever someone proposes that people be more proactive about protecting themselves naive people retort that its "victim blaming" and that all measures must be taken on the attacker side