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Forums - Politics Discussion - Catalonia declares independence. Puigdemont free to roam Belgium.

 

Who do you support?

Spain 139 59.40%
 
Catalonia 95 40.60%
 
Total:234

Right, what is the purpose of that? Or more specifically, how is that different from... running a poll,
which is 100% legal and which are routinely done, although separatists mysteriously don't mention these.
Incidentally the latest polls show separatist support falling and continuing to be non-majority.
If separatists NOW refuse to recognize their own non-majority, if they talk about their 90% of their
own games that Unionists refuse to participate in, what is different about this hypothetical "big poll"?



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Goodnightmoon said:
fory77 said:

Not on purpose tbh. 

However, i have question for you. Would you be in favour of a second referendum which is not legally binding? It would pretty much be a giant poll.

But what is the purpose of that? People doesn't vote exactly the same when they know is not legally binding and thus not the real thing. I would be in favour of a legal referendum with and extense campaign that explain the populations both sides of independence.

wew i forgot there is gonna be an election in december, idk why i asked 

Last edited by fory77 - on 29 October 2017

fory77 said:

Not on purpose tbh. 

However, i have question for you. Would you be in favour of a second referendum which is not legally binding? It would pretty much be a giant poll.

UK having a non-legally binding referendum lead them to withdrawing EU membership ... 

If Catalan separatists or unionists knows what's good for themselves then they'll take a non-legally binding referendum seriously as in UK's example ... 

This way it won't spook the Spanish General Courts too much into a gridlock and they won't have much to lose aside from the possibility that the people of Catalonia does not want to be in a union with Spain anymore ... 

Best way to test out just how "democratic" or "imperialist" Spain truly is IMO ...



fatslob-:O said:
*Snip*

Since you're back, I hope you can finally write a cohesive argument about why those articles are different. Or explain why you removed context here to make it look like states need to defend their interests through the Bundesrat for all kind of matters that affect them directly:

fatslob-:O said:
Player2 said:

Replace autonomous regions with States. That's why I said "pretty much".

Yeah, their absolutely not equivalents in this case ... 

"in matters that affect them directly, the states defend their interests at the federal level through the Bundesrat ("Federal Council", the upper house of the German Federal Parliament)" 

By comparison the Generalitat of Catalonia has powers that is almost like a US state ... 

Let's see the full text:

"Though international relations including international treaties are primarily the responsibility of the federal level, the constituent states have certain limited powers in this area: in matters that affect them directly, the states defend their interests at the federal level through the Bundesrat ("Federal Council", the upper house of the German Federal Parliament) and in areas where they have legislative authority they have limited powers to conclude international treaties "with the consent of the federal government".

What you posted is for international relations. Only. States are largely sovereign in matters like education, culture or public service regulations.



Smartie900 said:
Spain is not gonna want to give up Catalonia. It is one of their most economically successful subdivision and is the 2nd most populous of the country. Spain would be weak as shit without them.

Catalonia is also neck-deep in debt. They’d be an isolated wreck without Spain.



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Puigdemont has fled to Belgium http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/873078/Catalonia-News-Puigdemont-travels-to-Brussels-after-Belgian-minister-asylum-offer



I found this an interesting and inspired read.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2017/10/29/its-time-to-give-a-voice-to-catalonias-silent-majority/



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
I found this an interesting and inspired read.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2017/10/29/its-time-to-give-a-voice-to-catalonias-silent-majority/

Good read



Slimebeast said:
MarkkyStorm said:
Although I disagree with socialism (and I know that Catalonia will be a socialist country), I always support any kind of independency or decentralization of power, so congratulations Catalonia. Hope it last.

Amen. Every people deserves the right to self-determination.

Self-determination is a so important matter that I cannot possible understand how people don't talk enough about it. 



fatslob-:O said:
fory77 said:

Not on purpose tbh. 

However, i have question for you. Would you be in favour of a second referendum which is not legally binding? It would pretty much be a giant poll.

UK having a non-legally binding referendum lead them to withdrawing EU membership ... 

If Catalan separatists or unionists knows what's good for themselves then they'll take a non-legally binding referendum seriously as in UK's example ... 

This way it won't spook the Spanish General Courts too much into a gridlock and they won't have much to lose aside from the possibility that the people of Catalonia does not want to be in a union with Spain anymore ... 

Best way to test out just how "democratic" or "imperialist" Spain truly is IMO ...

It can't really be compared with the UK's EU referendum because it's a completely different situation - the UK is leaving a union of countries it voted to join by referendum; they're not part of a unified country trying to separate themselves.

Technically speaking, any referendum in the UK is advisory (non-legally binding). The fact that it was non-legally binding had no impact on the result of the Brexit vote, or the EU accepting the outcome. But I won't drag this off topic by getting into those details.

Take the Scottish independence referendum of 2014. In order for that to take place, the UK and Scottish governments signed the Edinburgh agreement in 2012 to make it legal for the Scottish government to have a referendum by the end of 2014.

In contrast, Spain declared the Catalan independence referendum of Oct 1 illegal. I won't pretend that I know or understand all the developments running up to this referendum, but there obviously was no legal agreement beforehand.

In the Scottish referendum, there was an 85% turnout with 55% voting to 'No' to independence.

In the Catalan referendum, just a 42% turnout with 90% voting 'yes' to independence, but poll stations were being closed, ballot boxes being seized and voters turned away by police.

Despite the Catalan results I am reading reports that a low percentage of Catalonians want independence. If this is correct, then IMO it is right for Spain to have snap regional elections. I understand that the Spanish foreign minister has even said that the Catalan leader is still entitled to stand for election - provided he is not in jail.

I'm beginning to doubt he will stand, now the news is that he and other Catalan officials have fled to Brussels.

Last edited by Hedra42 - on 30 October 2017