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Forums - Politics Discussion - German election tomorrow

 

Who do your want to win?

CDU/CSU 31 10.69%
 
SPD 23 7.93%
 
Left 30 10.34%
 
Greens 12 4.14%
 
FDP 17 5.86%
 
AfD 59 20.34%
 
another one of the parties on ballot 6 2.07%
 
a party not on ballot 6 2.07%
 
no one 17 5.86%
 
see results 89 30.69%
 
Total:290
vivster said:

I can only speak for my own country. And here politics do not have the same attention as other entertainment and as such have not been degraded into the same circus like in the US.

So you can only speak for your own country, but of course, you can also speak for the US.

The way you describe the political system in your country sounds like it's very different from the political system in my country. I was quite surprised to see that according to your profile, your and my country are actually identical.

vivster said:

(On Germany) Parties act upon their conscience and policy and not because they desperately need to win the next election. There are no hardened rivalries because the goal is driven by policies and not elections. [...] Politics in Germany [...] functions exactly as what it's supposed to. [...] Sure, no democracy is perfect but what we have here is pretty much as close as it gets.

Those lines made me laugh so hard that I'm wondering if that was satirical or if you're being serious.

If you're really being serious, you must be about the most indoctrinated (and maybe naive) person I've ever come along.



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Mnementh said:
vivster said:

But isn't that what true democracy is all about? Acting upon issues when things are changing and the majority of the people speak out on important issues. One could say Merkel is one of the few truly democratic leaders that's not just bound to her party or voters, but all citizens.

No, democracy is a choice of options (in case of a parliament people that go into the parliament), of which you choose the one which you agree the most with. If a candidate is changing his/her opinion it is a moving target. What consequence has my vote if the candidate changes all the time? And if all candidates all always changing, my vote is irrelevant, as I cannot predict which outcome it produces.

That is a normal risk in democracy as it's still based on humans. I'd rather have a more flexible democracy than a leader that clings to campaign promises despite changing circumstances.

Voting is only every 4 years. It's impractical to hold the same opinions as you had 4 years ago despite things changing. That's just stubborn and stupid. If it's a justified change of heart it's absolutely fine and you are free to vote for someone else next election. Merkel lost a good portion of her voters but the majority is still fine even with changing positions when it's necessary and founded.



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vivster said:

Another example would be gun control. In the current climate it is simply impossible to enact a full gun ban for civil use(except sports). So you would have to introduce it gradually. But if you do it gradually you will not see any results, which will just give more fuel to gun activists. It's not just the ban on guns that makes other countries so safe. It's the way people think of guns. It's not a status symbol or a precious symbol of freedom. It's not presented as the only thing to protect yourself and your family. It's simply treated at what it is, a tool for killing, a last resort. In the US it's the former and unless you change how people think about guns you cannot even attempt to apply policy.

With the myth of the gun in the US it is special somewhat. Recently I watched the korean show Stranger/Forest of Secrets on Netflix. It is a crime-show featuring police and prosecutors. Only half-through as one role aquires a gun I realized I saw no gun the whole time. One time the policewomen draws a taser, but isn't shooting it. The gun ends also unused. And that's it in 16 episodes. Multiple murders, chasing of suspects, but no shooting. This made me realize how much we are used to seeing guns and shootings in such shows - if they come from the US.



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ArnoldRimmer said:
vivster said:

I can only speak for my own country. And here politics do not have the same attention as other entertainment and as such have not been degraded into the same circus like in the US.

So you can only speak for your own country, but of course, you can also speak for the US.

The way you describe the political system in your country sounds like it's very different from the political system in my country. I was quite surprised to see that according to your profile, your and my country are actually identical.

vivster said:

(On Germany) Parties act upon their conscience and policy and not because they desperately need to win the next election. There are no hardened rivalries because the goal is driven by policies and not elections. [...] Politics in Germany [...] functions exactly as what it's supposed to. [...] Sure, no democracy is perfect but what we have here is pretty much as close as it gets.

Those lines made me laugh so hard that I'm wondering if that was satirical or if you're being serious.

If you're really being serious, you must be about the most indoctrinated (and maybe naive) person I've ever come along.

Maybe you need to think more in context of what you're comparing here. Maybe it's not me that doesn't know enough about German politics and rather you who doesn't know enough about US politics.

I won't stand and let anyone compare the shit show in the US with what we have in Germany. No matter how bad you think German politics is, have a closer look at other places and start appreciating what we have here. You will be hard pressed to find a much better democracy no matter how shit you think our system and politicians are.



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Peh said:

Now even Frauke Petry left the fraction. 

The fraction hasn't even constituted yet and she already left it.



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Mnementh said:

vivster said:

Another example would be gun control. In the current climate it is simply impossible to enact a full gun ban for civil use(except sports). So you would have to introduce it gradually. But if you do it gradually you will not see any results, which will just give more fuel to gun activists. It's not just the ban on guns that makes other countries so safe. It's the way people think of guns. It's not a status symbol or a precious symbol of freedom. It's not presented as the only thing to protect yourself and your family. It's simply treated at what it is, a tool for killing, a last resort. In the US it's the former and unless you change how people think about guns you cannot even attempt to apply policy.

With the myth of the gun in the US it is special somewhat. Recently I watched the korean show Stranger/Forest of Secrets on Netflix. It is a crime-show featuring police and prosecutors. Only half-through as one role aquires a gun I realized I saw no gun the whole time. One time the policewomen draws a taser, but isn't shooting it. The gun ends also unused. And that's it in 16 episodes. Multiple murders, chasing of suspects, but no shooting. This made me realize how much we are used to seeing guns and shootings in such shows - if they come from the US.

It's the difference of molding a nation out of war or out of peace.



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StarOcean said:
vivster said:

I think a domestic war would just exacerbate the problem. Put the US even more in its favorite victim role and "prove" all those right wing fear mongers right.

What would be a lot more effective would be a complete economic collapse.

It would make them even more dependant of foreign aid, weakening the national ego.
Gun violence may increase which may prompt stricter enforcement of gun control.
It would make them spend less on defense.
It would make many more people dependant on welfare, expanding social programs.
Lower overall income would make the government crack down on shady financial institutions and the out of control pharma industry.
Government would maybe have some motivation for tax reform and cracking down on tax evaders.

That's all hypothetical of course but it sounds nice. The US has mostly made policy from a position of strength and rarely out of weakness, which explains why there are so few policies that help the weak or create safenets in case of sudden weakness.

Hmm.. so you believe something like a larger recession would benefit the country then?

I believe that too yes. But it would only help long-term. Short term the people obviously would suffer. But I don't know which other way to go. I had high hopes in Obama for a real change, but had to realize it is not possible. Obama clearly had good intentions, but couldn't change the country. So I don't think elections can save the US.



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vivster said:
Mnementh said:

No, democracy is a choice of options (in case of a parliament people that go into the parliament), of which you choose the one which you agree the most with. If a candidate is changing his/her opinion it is a moving target. What consequence has my vote if the candidate changes all the time? And if all candidates all always changing, my vote is irrelevant, as I cannot predict which outcome it produces.

That is a normal risk in democracy as it's still based on humans. I'd rather have a more flexible democracy than a leader that clings to campaign promises despite changing circumstances.

Voting is only every 4 years. It's impractical to hold the same opinions as you had 4 years ago despite things changing. That's just stubborn and stupid. If it's a justified change of heart it's absolutely fine and you are free to vote for someone else next election. Merkel lost a good portion of her voters but the majority is still fine even with changing positions when it's necessary and founded.

Yeah, that's why I want direct democracy. Parliament should make in legislation in most cases, but if the people disagree or want a legislation that the parliament refuses they can put it to a vote. It's working in Switzerland.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

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10 years greatest game event!

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vivster said:
Mnementh said:

With the myth of the gun in the US it is special somewhat. Recently I watched the korean show Stranger/Forest of Secrets on Netflix. It is a crime-show featuring police and prosecutors. Only half-through as one role aquires a gun I realized I saw no gun the whole time. One time the policewomen draws a taser, but isn't shooting it. The gun ends also unused. And that's it in 16 episodes. Multiple murders, chasing of suspects, but no shooting. This made me realize how much we are used to seeing guns and shootings in such shows - if they come from the US.

It's the difference of molding a nation out of war or out of peace.

Weren't both nations molded out of war?



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

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10 years greatest game event!

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Mnementh said:
ArnoldRimmer said:

Indeed, the german liberals are anything but left. Ideologically, they're closest to the right-wing parties AfD and CDU; a bit more left than the AfD, a bit more right than the CDU.

I don't quite agree with your left-right scheme in comparison to AfD and CDU. For instance the FDP is disagreeing with surveillance (as this is restricting freedom), which could be seen as more left. But more consequently it is more liberal (in the sense of freedom). In other questions they also prefer more freedom, so for instance the root for less restrictions for companies, while the CDu prefers some more rules for social security. In this case you could see the FDP as right of the CDU, but again it is about more freedom.

Of course reducing things to a one-dimensional left/right scheme is oversimplification, but ultimately that's still the common dimension to classify parties (usually the only one).

When it comes to the somewhat established german parties, the AfD is considered to be the far-right end of the spectrum - and the FDP is the party that is ideologically closest to the AfD. (If you don't believe that, just make the Wahl-O-Mat test, always answer with the original AfD answer, and look which party has the highest accordance: it's the FDP, followed by CDU).