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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Cartridges or optical discs?

 

I prefer...

Cartridges 381 78.56%
 
Optical discs 104 21.44%
 
Total:485
VGPolyglot on 06 September 2017
couchmonkey said:
Mummelmann said:

You don't own the game when it's digital? What if I write a manuscript, apply copyright protection to it and keep it saved only on drives, I don't own my own work because there's no physical copy? Yes, I can print it whenever, but the principle is the same. If you purchase a digital product; you own it regardless of whether there's a physical copy, or are you telling me that I don't own my purchased Windows 8 license since there's no disc? My Netflix and HBO accounts aren't mine? The money in my account and not in my wallet is not mine? It's a rather ridiculous suggestion.

Besides; physical media doesn't live forever, both discs and carts have limited lifespan. I remember in the old days with floppy discs, they had terrible durability. Physical copies can also scratch or break in various ways, need manual insertion and storage, changing, and still usually require some form of install.

This is where digital gets interesting.  It's very convenient, but as a retro gamer, I don't want to be stuck with no game if the hardware dies or the servers are shut down, etc. etc.  Physical media doesn't last forever...but I have had 0 of ~100 cartridges die on me except for the second hand ones that were mistreated by their previous owners.  In fact, I've even only had a couple of disc issues, and both of those were second hand too (but I admit my DVDs and CDs are giving me a handful of problems, probably in the 1-2% range.)

If someone would create an iTunes-like experience for digital (that spans multiple generations of consoles - like my TG16 R-Type can be transferred from Wii to Wii U to Switch), I'd totally go for that.

When someone creates a Netflix-like experience for digital (probably where Nintendo's going with Switch), I'll think about it.  I prefer collecting but if the price:games ratio is right, who knows?

For me, it's: 1. Carts 2. Discs 3. Digital - but digital could easily be 2 or maybe even 1 with the right platform behind it.

I'm a retro gamer/collector myself, but I have to say, if my consoles and games start dying out and not working, I'm just going to go with emulators and ROMs/ISOs, since I've built up my collection once, and don't feel like having to do it agin.



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superchunk on 06 September 2017

My preference in order is:
1. Digital
2. Cart
3. Disc

The reasons for this preference order is:
1. simplicity of ability to play and switch between games, no storage, no possibility of getting damaged or lost
2. simplified storage, highly durable, no optical drive required in console
3. meh



curl-6 on 06 September 2017
Louie said:
Cards. It's one of the big reasons why the Switch has so much appeal to me.

Same here, I actually wonder whether this is a widespread feeling; perhaps the return to carts is a key part of Switch's appeal.

Furthermore, I wonder if the results of this poll would be considerably different if I'd conducted it in 2015, before we even knew "NX" would be cart-based.



SvennoJ on 06 September 2017
curl-6 said:
Louie said:
Cards. It's one of the big reasons why the Switch has so much appeal to me.

Same here, I actually wonder whether this is a widespread feeling; perhaps the return to carts is a key part of Switch's appeal.

Furthermore, I wonder if the results of this poll would be considerably different if I'd conducted it in 2015, before we even knew "NX" would be cart-based.

Perhaps the love for carts is a result of the frustration with lengthy installs and loading times from discs. Last gen ps3 had notoriously slow installs (mgs4 10 minutes for the next chapter) and while the ps4 has mostly fixed that, xbox one now suffers from slow installs.

That carts are faster was mostly the result of the games on them being much smaller. BotW still has plenty lengthy loading times and the WiiU even outperforms the Switch during the game. For best result carts will also need to be installed as the carts the games come on won't be the more expensive UHS-3 speed class, not the new video speed class. And even at 90 MB/s they only match sequential read speed of a 5400 rpm HDD, while next gen consoles really need to be targeting SSD through Sata 3 at 500 MB/s.

Eurogamer did a test
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-best-microsd-cards-for-switch-loading-time-comparison
Internal storage (fully installing the game) wins, while there is no point buying faster than UHS-1 cards as the Switch doesn't benefit from faster cards. Which means that cartridges sit well below UHS-1 speed class, meaning less than 40 MB/s read speed, less than half of a 5400 rpm hdd.



fatslob-:O on 06 September 2017
SvennoJ said:

Perhaps the love for carts is a result of the frustration with lengthy installs and loading times from discs. Last gen ps3 had notoriously slow installs (mgs4 10 minutes for the next chapter) and while the ps4 has mostly fixed that, xbox one now suffers from slow installs.

That carts are faster was mostly the result of the games on them being much smaller. BotW still has plenty lengthy loading times and the WiiU even outperforms the Switch during the game. For best result carts will also need to be installed as the carts the games come on won't be the more expensive UHS-3 speed class, not the new video speed class. And even at 90 MB/s they only match sequential read speed of a 5400 rpm HDD, while next gen consoles really need to be targeting SSD through Sata 3 at 500 MB/s.

Eurogamer did a test
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-best-microsd-cards-for-switch-loading-time-comparison
Internal storage (fully installing the game) wins, while there is no point buying faster than UHS-1 cards as the Switch doesn't benefit from faster cards. Which means that cartridges sit well below UHS-1 speed class, meaning less than 40 MB/s read speed, less than half of a 5400 rpm hdd.

Yeah, I never quite understood the supposed speed advantages when it comes to cartridges. Now theoretically solid state technology are straight up faster in comparison to mechanical parts in terms of potential performance but I would not use that argument in favour of Nintendo systems when their cartridges have relatively shit slow read speeds in comparison to other common NAND flash memory or even disc drives for that matter ... (for Nintendo the most compelling advantage to them is obtaining a smaller form factor)

Solid state storage does have higher potential read/write speeds but that's also dependent on other qualities such as the quality of the flash memory itself and the interface speeds too ...

The only probably reason why Nintendo games maintains lower install times/faster loading times is because their games usually have a low storage memory/(I/O) bandwidth ratio ...  



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Pemalite on 07 September 2017
Mr_No said:

Then why respond to my comment on first place if it's an opinion you care little about? Also...

Your image is non functional.

I don't care about you or your opinion, I care about facts and points that are presented and will argue against those based on their merits.

TheBraveGallade said:
I think people are forgetting one thing: if you own a game in digital, you don't actually OWN the game, unlike a phisical game...
as for me I prefer carts because I hate the loading to HDD bulshit disks do. if you are going to do that, might as well go digital...

The legalities of that are still yet to be determined as far as I know.
And the legalities of which will also vary depending on geographical region.

In Australia we tend to be more Pro-Consumer... And the consumer likely owns the purchased content due to the way it is advertised.
For example... You buy a game on Steam... It says "Buy now" rather than "License Now". - Thus from a consumer standpoint the consumer is buying a copy and not licensing it.
Furthermore an EULA/ToS does not override the law or your consumer rights.

dharh said:

Certainly Reddit is no actual evidence.

I did have more free time to look stuff up and found this iFixit breakdown that also mentions that this is a software issue.

Blu-Ray drives that can play DVD/CD have two laser assemblies.  One for Blu-Ray and one for DVD/CD.  The PS4 also has both of these laser assemblies.  We know this from actually looking at the laser lenses inside the drive and the fact that it can play DVDs.

It also appears thre are newer single laser assemblies that can do both red and blue lasers.  I think this is what the PS4 slim and PS4 pro are using.

iFixit actually uses Eurogamer as a citation point which is also citing a Sony press release from over 4 years ago.
Eurogamer is generally accurate anyway. But there still hasn't been any movement on this front.

But thank you for your effort, you are right on all your points.

However... One thing to keep in mind is that just like Blu-Ray and DVD... CD also operates at a different wavelength, traditional DVD drives required a few tricks to retain backwards compatability CD, so it's not outside of the realm of impossibility for a drive to support BDROM and DVD and not CD and nor does the BDROM and DVD specification enforce such a thing either.

I hope for Playstation 4 users that CD support is introduced at some point, it's baffling why it's still not included if it's a software limitation when Sony pledge to support the format at one point.

fatslob-:O said:

The only probably reason why Nintendo games maintains lower install times/faster loading times is because their games usually have a low storage memory/(I/O) bandwidth ratio ...  

Switch should have an advantage on random access times though.

In general... The Switch isn't breaking 90MB/s of bandwidth regardless if it is cart or MicroSD... And because of such, the mechanical drives in the consoles are actually faster at sustained reads and writes. (The Optical Disks are much slower than all of them however.)



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

NightDragon83 on 07 September 2017

Carts / memory cards all the way. Much more durable, and you never have to worry about the disc drive or HDD going on your console. Eventually every disc-based console will be completely useless.

Also, it still pains me to this day paying $60 for a disc that costs pennies on the dollar to manufacture. At least during the N64 days there was a REASON games were $60 and up!



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

fatslob-:O on 07 September 2017
Pemalite said:

Switch should have an advantage on random access times though.

In general... The Switch isn't breaking 90MB/s of bandwidth regardless if it is cart or MicroSD... And because of such, the mechanical drives in the consoles are actually faster at sustained reads and writes. (The Optical Disks are much slower than all of them however.)

As do all flash based technology since they have the lower access latencies ... 

@Bold You can say that again since Nintendo hardly gives a damn about how fast their cartridges are if their willing to use monstrosity such as this ... (1-bit bus width, 45 MHz clock all for a whopping 5.6 MB/s!) 

My internet is faster at downloading than their 3DS cartridge read speads LOL ... (I wouldn't rule out Switch carts being possibly slower)



TheBraveGallade on 07 September 2017

basically a digital copy counts as a licenced, or borrowed product, not a bought product



Spindel on 07 September 2017
Pemalite said:
pokoko said:

Then I'll download it.

Just like Ram?

Spindel said:

Specially the cartriges of the 8 and 16-bit eras where they allowed for co-processors and specialized chipsets that could expand on the base systems capabilities.

You do realise that inside the NES/SNES/N64 carts was a ton of empty space right?

The Switch/3DS carts can *technically* have Co-Processors as well.
It's unlikely due to additional costs...
The interconnect not having the appropriate levels of bandwidth... (We need GB/s not MB/s)
And the fact that processors these days are so powerful, they require a heatsink and/or a fan... Not exactly great in a cart. A passively cooled small co-processor would likely not offer much benefit over the powerful base device in this day and age.

But it is still possible, just no point to it anymore.

Azzanation said:
CDs sucked especially in the early days of gaming. Cartridges is just a superior format. Today Cartridges can hold more memory than Blu-Rays which was the only advantage it had.

Disks still have the advantage of cost and manufacturing time.
Stamping disks is so much faster than fabrication of chips, building of PCB, moulding of plastics and then assembling it all together.

Mr_No said:

I choose optical discs because they allow for larger capacities and a better sound quality

Not any more.

I never said that I want a cartrige that physically looks like the 8-bit, 16-bit and N64 ones.

 

What I want is the ability for co-processors (whitch will require a bit roomier cartriges than the DS, 3DS and switch ones.

 

It doesn't need to be a fully blown GPU (like the Super FX and FX 2 chips). But I could see a posibility for maybe a ARM chip (which doesn't neccesairly needs a big heatsink, if it needs any at all) fore some extra processing power for thing like maybe AI (yeah yeah I know ARM are more general purpose and not suited for AI but you get the point). Or a custom chip that helps to allow for some newer generation shader that is not supported for the aging hardware in the console for crisper graphics (even if I see new chipsets for stuff that is mostly related to under the hood calculations over graphical expandability since the graphics race is tiring and in most of the powerhouse consoles and PC I feel like the big budget games spend all the budget on visuals and forget gameplay).