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Forums - Politics Discussion - White Supremacist Drives Car into Counter-Protesters (20 Injured, One Dead)

coolbeans said:
sundin13 said:

It's one thing to say "the blood is on the hands of The Beatles for the Charles Manson killings" and its another thing to say "the blood is on the hands of Charles Manson for the Charles Manson killings" (if you weren't aware, Charles Manson never actually killed anyone). 

Its a ridiculously overblown analogy, but the point is that there is a line of logic between words and actions. Personally, I have never heard Sanders ever say anything which could embolden violence or imply that he supports violence in his name and after that incident, he made it very clear that he denounces such acts. On the other hand, Trump has repeatedly encouraged violence to some degree against protesters who disagreed with him (encouraging beating up protesters at his rallies and saying that he would pay the legal fees) and his response to this incident was so weak that some white nationalists took it as a sign of support from the president.

Now, I think its ridiculous to say the blood is on Trump's hands, but the two incidents aren't exactly equivalent. 

What about his rhetoric, and of those politically aligned with him, tying the GOP's ideas for healthcare to the literal killing of millions of people?  If we're to be consistent in going down this principle of "words can turn to violence" I see very few clearer modern examples in the US then of that one.  And it wouldn't take much effort to come across people justifying that attack with what's on the line, or at the very least committing emotional blackmail against Scalise + GOP such as Joy Reid did on national television.  I don't see how the comparison to an already-absurd claim is untenable.

Why should their stupid interpretation matter?  He called out all the violence that's occurred--vehicle manslaughter falls under that.

So condemning other people for not respecting the well-being of American citizens is encouraging others to not respect the well-being of American citizens? Seems like a stretch and certainly not the same thing as saying "hey, you should beat up those protesters" (to paraphrase). 

Anyways, why should their "stupid interpretation" matter? If Trump's statements are so weak as to be interpreted as support by the very people he should be calling out, he is doing something wrong. And the reason that matters is that if the people who are committing crimes or supporting white nationalism in Trump's name think that Trump supports them, it could potentially embolden them and further inflame tensions. For a man who is so adamant about "calling it by its name" on other subjects, it is strange to see him pussyfoot around these issues and refuse to look directly at them. 

Again, this comparison is apples to oranges. 



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People are entitled to their differences in opinion whether you agree with them or not. Some people can be anti-racist/pro-gay marriage or whatever they believe in. On the other hand people can be racist or homophobic or white supremacists. People have their democratic right to believe in what they want to believe in.



To me, the issue is a lot larger than any emboldening of radical individuals or groups (although it is dangerous and a bit hypocritical to use such soft language when denouncing white nationalists). I think the problem is that Trump drives people apart. Not just in an "antifa" vs "nazis" sense, but in a larger sense. America is becoming more divided and more partisan. 

This is a trend that has been happening for a while, so I don't think Trump should shoulder the blame, but I think this country has gotten to a place where this is quite possibly the biggest domestic issue facing our nation. We need a president who can bring us together and work to heal the partisan divide. Trump makes no attempt to work across the aisle, compromise or understand those with a perspective that differs from his own and he encourages his followers to do the same. The only conceivable way that Trump could be bringing people together is by making both the right and the left hate him, but all that really does in practice is fracture our country in another direction. 

I think it is silly to "blame" this on Trump, but I do think that this is a symptom of a divided nation that Trump has done little to address (and has arguably exacerbated). However, the weakness of his responses indicates an unwillingness to turn his back to extremist elements who do work to further divide our nation and an inability to lead us out of the difficulties that this country is facing.

coolbeans said:

That's WAY too charitable interpretation of the situation to be, funnily enough, considered apples and oranges.  You brought up the throughline of where words can lead to repulsive actions.  Dismantling a bill that was built to fail, hurt middle class families' premiums, and other terrible results =/= GOP committing a mass genocide against sick people.  It shouldn't be that hard to see a similar type of connective tissue when this kind of rhetoric is hurled over and over.  

1.) Anyone who committed violence was called out.

2.) If violent idiots think someone's supporting them after he just denounced violence all-around...then I don't see why their delusion should amount to much.

3.)  I can't say I really see Trump as potentially inflaming when considering the cultural background of all this:  AntiFa and natzee punching.  The people involved with riling up this knew violence would only beget more violence.

4.)  I do agree with it being uncharacteristic of his usual way of aggressive tweets and such, and still worthy of criticism.

Again, the comparison isn't untenable.

I don't agree that the GOP is committing mass genocide, but I also don't really think that conversation is relevant to this discussion... Sanders' rhetoric and Trump's rhetoric are fundamentally different. One is directly encouraging violence while the other is condemning (what he perceives as) immoral political acts.

Anyways, I don't really have much else to say. Trump has repeatedly endorsed violence against protestors. In this case, he made a weak condemnation that did nothing to actually demonstrate any ability to lead because someone died and he basically had to. That said, I posted my full comment on the subject above if you want the full context of my opinion outside of this one little microcosm of the debate. 



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
People are entitled to their differences in opinion whether you agree with them or not. Some people can be anti-racist/pro-gay marriage or whatever they believe in. On the other hand people can be racist or homophobic or white supremacists. People have their democratic right to believe in what they want to believe in.

People can believe whatever they want but the racists better realize one sobering fucking truth, they are living in 2017 not 1955 and their bigotry has no place in mainstream public America any longer.

People of color are not some small minority group, they are a virtual half the country now and people who cannot abide that might as well move on to the trash heap of history. 



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
People are entitled to their differences in opinion whether you agree with them or not. Some people can be anti-racist/pro-gay marriage or whatever they believe in. On the other hand people can be racist or homophobic or white supremacists. People have their democratic right to believe in what they want to believe in.

Then we'll continue to keep criticizing them and their barbaric beliefs. No issue at all from me. I just don't want a car rammed into my sides.



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Dark_Lord_2008 said:
People are entitled to their differences in opinion whether you agree with them or not. Some people can be anti-racist/pro-gay marriage or whatever they believe in. On the other hand people can be racist or homophobic or white supremacists. People have their democratic right to believe in what they want to believe in.

 

Well yes you have a point but we're not dealing with people do not have some level of genocidal thinking in their head.

But have you paid attention to the demands of the alt right or paid attention to the history of the kkk and the terrorist threat that it would pose if they reached a level of membership that they had in the early to mid 20th century? They bombed countless black  churches, (you know..while claiming they were Christian)hung them, and all other sorts of twisted acts. They got away with it because the local governments and police were members too. It was a wild operation. Freedom of speech of one thing but countrys history has their terror etched it's young life for over a century. 



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
People are entitled to their differences in opinion whether you agree with them or not. Some people can be anti-racist/pro-gay marriage or whatever they believe in. On the other hand people can be racist or homophobic or white supremacists. People have their democratic right to believe in what they want to believe in.

Agreed, though the issue has less to do with beliefs, but how people act on their beliefs.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
People are entitled to their differences in opinion whether you agree with them or not. Some people can be anti-racist/pro-gay marriage or whatever they believe in. On the other hand people can be racist or homophobic or white supremacists. People have their democratic right to believe in what they want to believe in.

Agreed. Obviously I have no love for Neo-Nazi's, especially being part Polish and having grandparents that suffered at the hands of REAL Nazis, but Antifa and BLM's biggest error was not letting this people just protest without stirring the pot. They're only hurting their own cause by drawing attention to them. They also make themselves look little better by doing things like throwing bricks and smashing in windows. In America, we should always advocate for freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas, no matter how radical they might be, so long as they aren't physically threatening. This to me is what makes America, America. And if their ideas are that horrible as more reasonable folk would assume, they will fall on deaf ears anyway and wither away. THIS is how you win the debate, not by silencing or shaming, as it only allows things to fester and grow. This should be clear by now, based on recent history in the US.



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

DarthMetalliCube said:
Dark_Lord_2008 said:
People are entitled to their differences in opinion whether you agree with them or not. Some people can be anti-racist/pro-gay marriage or whatever they believe in. On the other hand people can be racist or homophobic or white supremacists. People have their democratic right to believe in what they want to believe in.

Agreed. Obviously I have no love for Neo-Nazi's, especially being part Polish and having grandparents that suffered at the hands of REAL Nazis, but Antifa and BLM's biggest error was not letting this people just protest without stirring the pot. They're only hurting their own cause by drawing attention to them. They also make themselves look little better by doing things like throwing bricks and smashing in windows. In America, we should always advocate for freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas, no matter how radical they might be, so long as they aren't physically threatening. This to me is what makes America, America. And if their ideas are that horrible as more reasonable folk would assume, they will fall on deaf ears anyway and wither away. THIS is how you win the debate, not by silencing or shaming, as it only allows things to fester and grow. This should be clear by now, based on recent history in the US.

Nazis had their chance to "debate and offer" their ideas. 

It was called World War II. 

We don't need to "exchange" ideas with them any longer. We know what they are about. But for people who advocate for this view, then why don't you go excercise your free speech to them? These people are not hard to find. 

You are perfectly free to go to one of their meetings and go try and talk them out of their beliefs. Provided they don't threaten you with violence, see where that goes and how that works out for you. 

But when it comes to them organizing in public ... never again is that going to happen without them being met in kind with opposition. 

While we're at it lets have an "exhange of ideas" with ISIS too. Lets let them organize and march and share their ideas and surely they'll just go away.

Or not. 

 Free speech protects your right to say what you what without the government being able to arrest you for it, all this other stuff is stuff that actually isn't part of the freedom of speech laws. There's no "freedom of speech and freedom of consequence and gauruntee of respect no matter what you say" ... that is wholly different. 



Well they are all scum. Just as Daesh and Taliban are scum so are these scum killing people with cars. They are just as much terrorists as the scummy terrorists. The best thing to do against scum is to call them scum and laugh at their pathetic worthless selves



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also