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Forums - Politics Discussion - An Oceanside minister supported Trump. Gets deported

Hopefully, he is able to apply and return to the US lawfully and become a full citizen.

The law exists for a reason. It is a good thing to help those in need but when you open your borders and let everybody in, that stops being charity and becomes irresponsibility. Open borders is like a department store manager deciding to get rid of all of the security camera's and guards in the store to help the poor. within a few weeks, it won't just be the poor taking items from the store, it will be competing stores and organized crime and within a few months the store will go out of business and then all the clerks in the store making minimum wage will be without a job and even the poor who were the target of the store's policy will be worse off. This is why even food banks make you present proof of financial need: lawlessness is rarely a good thing.

Further, it's not charity for government officials to allow illegal mass-immigration when it is the people (many of whom didn't even vote for the said government officials) who have to live with the consequences. Charity is a personal self-sacrifice, but there is no charity in telling those below you to accept a lower standard of living when you go on living the high life. Millionaire leftist figures like those in Hollywood and most of the DNC who say we need to open our borders don't have to deal with the ugly reality of immigration when their homes have personal security details that make the border patrol look tame. At least Trump is a rich guy who is trying to actually trying to respond to the struggles of the people below him.



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Shadow1980 said:
betacon said:

They not just arbitrary designed though, without boarders the values you hold dear will mean nothing and even if they share all the same values no country could support taking everyone in, so everyone living in poverty is better? There's a system to apply for citizenship if you avoid this not only should you be deported but never allowed entry again.

"Borders," not "boarders."

And yes, they are arbitrary. They exist in the shape they do purely by historical accident. They weren't placed there by divine fiat, they are not natural occurrences, and there wasn't some international body that sat down and decided where those borders should be (like what U.S. politicians do when it comes time to redraw congressional districts each decade). The only reason the U.S. has the shape it does today is because of a sequence of largely unrelated events happened to occur over time that led to things being the way they are. This animated map of the territorial evolution of North America over the past 250+ years should show you just how arbitrary a line on a map is:

 

Countries expand their territories, or have territory taken from them, or unite with other countries to form an entirely new nation, or dissolve into multiple countries. Sometimes somebody picks a natural boundary like a river, or some specific line of latitude or longitude, but why that spot and not another? Maybe they just picked it because it seemed like a convenient spot to draw a line, or maybe it was an agreement between two parties on how to resolve a territorial dispute. Regardless of the reason, how those lines are shaped is mere happenstance.

 

Oh you're such a clever bee pointing out a typo, did it make you feel like a big boy?.

 

Do you even uderstand the word "Arbitrary" I don't think you do. Maybe do yourself a favour and look up the up meaning before you start rambling.

Arbitrary : "Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system." ~ oxford dictionary


 



Teeqoz said:

You can argue idealism all you want (in which case there are many idealistic arguments against your viewpoints as well), but if you look at it with a pragmatic point of view, your current immigration policies don't stop people from coming. They just ensure that people immigrate illegally, which lowers potential tax revenue, increases crime, pushes down wages because those workers have no rights to speak of (and even if they did, they couldn't use them cause they'd be thrown out), and is overall detrimental to society. Your policies act as a gateway into more crime because you already make people into criminals, which lowers the bar for participating in other legal activites, both voluntarily and being forced to do so.

Are you suggesting we keep unlawful residence of aliens instead ? 

If we looked at it from a pragmatic point of view then illegal immigrants should be straight up deported from america since they are not net contributors in terms tax revenue and instead add to the deficit by taking in more benefits than what they pay according to a study from the CBO ... 

I'd be okay with not being able to be a net contributor since most american tax payers get more benefits than what they pay in too but if you're going to try and benefit from another foreign nation, the least you could do is try and respect it's customs and the other things that come with it otherwise you shouldn't expect them to show you any mercy that goes especially where death penalty exists ... 

Our policies do not exist to create more crime, it exists to create order and precedent but if unauthorized aliens don't want anything to do with that then they don't have a place in the greatest nation on earth ... 



fatslob-:O said:
Teeqoz said:

You can argue idealism all you want (in which case there are many idealistic arguments against your viewpoints as well), but if you look at it with a pragmatic point of view, your current immigration policies don't stop people from coming. They just ensure that people immigrate illegally, which lowers potential tax revenue, increases crime, pushes down wages because those workers have no rights to speak of (and even if they did, they couldn't use them cause they'd be thrown out), and is overall detrimental to society. Your policies act as a gateway into more crime because you already make people into criminals, which lowers the bar for participating in other legal activites, both voluntarily and being forced to do so.

Are you suggesting we keep unlawful residence of aliens instead ? 

If we looked at it from a pragmatic point of view then illegal immigrants should be straight up deported from america since they are not net contributors in terms tax revenue and instead add to the deficit by taking in more benefits than what they pay according to a study from the CBO ... 

I'd be okay with not being able to be a net contributor since most american tax payers get more benefits than what they pay in too but if you're going to try and benefit from another foreign nation, the least you could do is try and respect it's customs and the other things that come with it otherwise you shouldn't expect them to show you any mercy that goes especially where death penalty exists ... 

Our policies do not exist to create more crime, it exists to create order and precedent but if unauthorized aliens don't want anything to do with that then they don't have a place in the greatest nation on earth ... 

No, I'm proposing that you make immigrating legally easier, and possible for more people.

Regardless of what the purpose of the policies is, that is one of its effects.

I also don't think even insinuating that the death penalty is acceptable punishment for immigrating illegally has any place in a proper discussion.



Teeqoz said:

No, I'm proposing that you make immigrating legally easier, and possible for more people.

Regardless of what the purpose of the policies is, that is one of its effects.

I also don't think even insinuating that the death penalty is acceptable punishment for immigrating illegally has any place in a proper discussion.

How much easier exactly ? We issue 1 million green cards each year which nets permanent residence status which translates to roughly adding 0.3% to our total population ...

My mention of death penalty in relation as a punishment for trespassing is your implication I didn't mean to create, my example of death penalty is that we don't show mercy for transgressions for whatever the punishment will be ... 

As you age you'll start to see that the world won't meet your expectations and that not even the greatest nation cannot bring every miracle like trying to meet it's vast demand for immigrating ... 



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fatslob-:O said:
Teeqoz said:

No, I'm proposing that you make immigrating legally easier, and possible for more people.

Regardless of what the purpose of the policies is, that is one of its effects.

I also don't think even insinuating that the death penalty is acceptable punishment for immigrating illegally has any place in a proper discussion.

How much easier exactly ? We issue 1 million green cards each year which nets permanent residence status which translates to roughly adding 0.3% to our total population ...

My mention of death penalty in relation as a punishment for trespassing is your implication I didn't mean to create, my example of death penalty is that we don't show mercy for transgressions for whatever the punishment will be ... 

As you age you'll start to see that the world won't meet your expectations and that not even the greatest nation cannot bring every miracle like trying to meet it's vast demand for immigrating ... 

Looking at statistics, about 350 000 people immigrate illegally to the US each year (and about 350 000 illegal immigrants also leave the country each year). That would be a 35% increase over your current 1 million green card number, which would in turn mean a 0.4% population increase from immigrants. I'm not saying the US has to take in everyone that wants to enter, this is just to put the numbers in perspective - Increasing the amount of green cards alotted each year by 10% would cover 30% of all illegal immigrants. That would already go a long way in alleviating the issues caused by people immigrating illegally. No need to use my age as a basis for arguments. Argue against what I'm saying, not my age. I'm not asking for an undoable miracle. America became a great nation due to rather lax immigration policies during the 19th century.



So it never occurred to him to get his papers straight?



Teeqoz said:

Looking at statistics, about 350 000 people immigrate illegally to the US each year (and about 350 000 illegal immigrants also leave the country each year). That would be a 35% increase over your current 1 million green card number, which would in turn mean a 0.4% population increase from immigrants. I'm not saying the US has to take in everyone that wants to enter, this is just to put the numbers in perspective - Increasing the amount of green cards alotted each year by 10% would cover 30% of all illegal immigrants. That would already go a long way in alleviating the issues caused by people immigrating illegally. No need to use my age as a basis for arguments. Argue against what I'm saying, not my age. I'm not asking for an undoable miracle. America became a great nation due to rather lax immigration policies during the 19th century.

We can't just magically increase the amount of green cards we issue by some number of say 10% spontaneously, 1 million is a big number as it is once we factor in that the US is going to do this every year for presumably the next decade or two so we'd at least want to ration the spots so we'd have enough resources to remain stable in the short and long term ... 

Even increasing the green cards issued by just 5% would have some pretty large ramifications to our logistics ... 

And I did not mean to use your age as an argument if that's the impression you got so my apologies there ... 



naruball said:
McDonaldsGuy said:
1. He probably didn't support Trump and either a) Wants attention or b) wants Trump himself to stop the deportation.

2. Even if he did support Trump, this won't save him from deportation. There is no "support Trump to become legal" clause. The law is the law.

3. And for the people saying we shouldn't have borders or that you're "illegal in one plot of land because you were born in another plot of land, and decided to move to it" if borders are arbitrary then why don't you allow random people to live inside your house and eat your food/use your electronics?

Maybe because that's a terrible analogy.

Why?



fatslob-:O said:
Teeqoz said:

Looking at statistics, about 350 000 people immigrate illegally to the US each year (and about 350 000 illegal immigrants also leave the country each year). That would be a 35% increase over your current 1 million green card number, which would in turn mean a 0.4% population increase from immigrants. I'm not saying the US has to take in everyone that wants to enter, this is just to put the numbers in perspective - Increasing the amount of green cards alotted each year by 10% would cover 30% of all illegal immigrants. That would already go a long way in alleviating the issues caused by people immigrating illegally. No need to use my age as a basis for arguments. Argue against what I'm saying, not my age. I'm not asking for an undoable miracle. America became a great nation due to rather lax immigration policies during the 19th century.

We can't just magically increase the amount of green cards we issue by some number of say 10% spontaneously, 1 million is a big number as it is once we factor in that the US is going to do this every year for presumably the next decade or two so we'd at least want to ration the spots so we'd have enough resources to remain stable in the short and long term ... 

Even increasing the green cards issued by just 5% would have some pretty large ramifications to our logistics ... 

And I did not mean to use your age as an argument if that's the impression you got so my apologies there ... 

Sure it would take a large effort, but it's a long term solution that could see long term results. Not allowing enough people to immigrate legally also costs the US a lot of money.