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Forums - General Discussion - Dragonball > Dragonball Z and Dragonball Super

First, I know it's DBZ is technically Dragonball.

...

Okay, not that that pedantic quip is out of the way, this is something I always think about, primerily because the answer has always been clear to me. Which series is the best? To me, is pretty obviously Dragonball. By a mile. But most people in the west grew up with Drasgonball Z first, and so their hearts lie with that.

This is something that has been dormant until Super came out, most notably this latest episode where Gohan get's to show off. A lot of the DB fanbase is excited about this. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't too. I pretty much think that most of Dragonball Z is really bad, but Gohan and Vegeta were pretty much the only reasons I like DBZ in retrospect, and Gohan was really ruined during the Buu Saga, so it's nice seeing him ready for action again.

That being said, seeing people get excited by what to me seemed to be a pretty crappy fight outside of the context got me thinking again about just how much better Dragonball was.

Now there are quite a few reasons, but I want to dispell something that I see a lot when this subject comes up. For some reason, people seem to think that people who prefer Dragonball prefer it because it focuses more on humor and is more light hearted, which is silly. People like Dragonball more because it tells more interesting stories with more interesting characters in more interesting settings. I don't even thing that Dragonball is exceptional in any of these catagories, but DBZ and Super are so much worse here.

A most of this is because of Zuper's focus on powerlevels with no consequence. If you're a character who isn't OP powerful, you're literally irrelevant. Even if you are a fighter with interesting abilities, you're irrelevant because of this focus. Bulma was one of the most fun characters in Dragonball, because she was not just useful, but integral. Now she's irrelevant outside of being a plot device. Oolong, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha, etc are all irrelevant now because all the narrative cares about is making Saiyans look cool.

The stories can't have interesting settings because every setting has to be an empty battlefield. Think about that. How many major fights in DBZ took place in environments that weren't barren waste lands? Little to none, and if they weren't a barren wasteland in the beginning, they desolved into one soon into the fight. In most of Dragonball, characters would actually use their environments in their battles.

They would also just go to more interesting, varied places because Dragonball was an adventure story first. People get caught up on Dragonball not being about dragonballs anymore, but that's not the problem. The problem is what it represents. The narrative structure weakens when there's no incentive to go anywhere.

This can go on forever, really. The focus on powerlevels makes travel less interesting because everyone just flies/teleports everywhere, so traversal isn't interesting. You know the saying "it's about the journey, not the destination?" Zuper sure doesn't. Having characters adhere to gravity actually made for more interesting travel because it was limited. Goku had his nimbus, but only the pure could sit on it, and it could break. Everyone had vehicles, but they could break or run out of gas or anything, meaning that interesting scenarios and complexities of progression arose from that.

Speaking of flying, it also makes the fights suck. Fights suck when no one needs to adhere to gravity. You need rules because rules create limits and limits create tention and creativity. When Goku faught Piccolo Jr., he couldn't fly (shut up, he couldn't), so he had to use a Kamehameha wave from his feet to propell himself off the ground into the air to knock him out. That's cool. In other instances, Goku would use his power pole, or Ki blast the ground. Being grounded also means that you can do simple things like trip your opponent or run. There's nothing interesting about flying combat because all you can do is punch and kick and power up and do ki blasts.

Fights are also worse in Zuper because fights are only made interesting by power ups, not by technique. Does anyone remember when Piccolo could shoot lazer beams from his eyes? Or stretch his arms? Or grow into a giant? Electricity? Mouth beam? Blowing gusts of wind strong enough to turn rocks into bullets? Literally anything besides limb regeneration? Because he could do all of that in one fight in dragonball. Tenshinhan can grow extra arms, shoot a lazer from his third eye, and split into four people, yet he's relegated to fodder because Zuper is the Super Saiyan show now. Even the Kaio Ken was a more interesting power up, because it had limits.

That's not to say that Zuper doesn't have techniques, just that none of them are interesting because they revolve around who is more powerful. Buu had powers, but fighting just revolved around power boosts. Hit does too, but no clever thinking was used in that fight. Just a power boost. Nothing like the foot kamehameha can happen in Zuper because innovation doesn't matter in fights anymore - power scaling does.

Which brings me back to Gohan. Why does his power boost even matter? How will his fights be different now? Well, he won't lose as much. Any new attacks? No. New skills? No. New developement? Well he retreads the Gohan/Piccolo arc of early DBZ, which isn't nearly as effective because we've already been here and Picollo isn't evil anymore. Is anything in that fight more interesting than Goku vs. King Picollo? No. It's just skyboxing in an empty wasteland with the same old ki blasts and no interesting techniques to make the fight choreography destinct.

It's just so frustrating for me to see the series devolve like it has. Goku had a cool ability he could have honed with the Great Ape transformation that would have actually required character developement, but that was axed in favor of Goku being exactly the same but with yellow hair. Exploring the universe and other planets and time should be awesome, but its basically teleportation because none of that stuff matters as much as the fighting, which isn't even good anymore. But I'm attached to these characters because of what they used to be.

And for the record, I only like Vegeta and gohan because of their development. They suffer the same problems in other places. Goku doesn't develope in Zuper. Picollo is great until he dies, and finishes his arc. Then he stops. Everyone else is static the entire series, and some regress. (like Gohan)

Come at me.



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There are over 900 words in this essay.
But yeah, I agree. I was a fan of the original series and there were a lot of creative ideas. In Z, there were also a few times when creativity really made a difference too, like the fight with raditz and the beam cannon. Or the destructo disc versus vegeta later on.

But yeah, as time went on, it became about raw power instead of fighting smart. I guess a counterpoint could be that some of those original moves were gimmicky, and shouldn't have done so much. But I agree for the most part.



Preach, brotha. I've been saying this for years, long before "Super" was even a thing. I thought even GT had more interesting things going on than Z and Super (I haven't seen Super yet, BTW, but I can imagine what it must be like).



I have to agree. I absolutely love the first series. Actually watching the old school fights with those epic soundtracks, watching Goku grow up from a young kid to a teenager...fighting Bruce Lee... it was great. The emphasis on brain and brawn also helped flesh out the battles more than Z and Super. I can remember almost frame by frame how Mercenary Tao got blown to smithereens. Even the simple, low key episodes had great substance to them. Like the one where Goku and Krillin were delivering Milk...that would sound boring to most people today but those episodes were great. I could go on and on like you but I'm tired. You focused more on the fighting scene aspects which I agree with.



I've never watched Super, and don't intend to. I liked Z more as a kid, though I think I was also at a point where I cared less about plot structure and character development, and more about cool fights with cool looking power-ups. Not that I begrudge people for enjoying this...but it's just not to my taste anymore.

If I were to watch all these series again, I imagine I'd find Dragonball the most appealing. The fights seemed less about power levels, and more about guts or creative ways to win. The larger cast was more viable, and there seemed to be more tension, since the Shenron plot reset was used less frequently. I also thought the more whimsical fantasy setting worked better than introducing aliens and space travel, though that's more preference in general.

Also Bulma was a lot hotter as a teenager.



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I think Naruto is the same. In the originals, you see amazing power, but there is still an emphasis on strategy and brainpower.

I definitely love the original the most, but I can't say I hate any specific part of Dragonball. It's still enjoyable to me. As long as it isn't as bad as the Kaguya arc, I can't complain



Thank you. Always preferred the original.



Definitely, its the masterful character development, world building and fight choreography that inspired so many other creators like the authors of One Piece and Hunter X Hunter. I grew up watching both DB and DBZ and while DBZ had hype moments that got you pumped thats pretty much all it was. It had no lasting appeal and charm like DB and it seemed to get degrade each arc. And don't even get me started on Super.



Dragonball is infinitely better than the others.

DBZ wasn't horrible. It should definitely ended though before Buu arc. That arc really hurt the series. 

The power levels were getting out of hand post Vegeta, and heading to Namek, but it still had a decent enough story that tied together. The androids being as powerful as they were a bit of an asspull, but again it tied back to earlier in series, and the whole future trunks storyline and the passing of the gauntlet to Gohan with Goku dying made it fine.

But then it went the whole super bs route most all sounen do after each arc. You know where they beat the strongest bad guy in the world, then all of a sudden some new bad guy pops up out of nowhere and is even stronger. You know its a total asspull by the author, there having been no foreshadowing, no tie back to earlier stuff, ect. Just the bs, "oh he was sealed here forever" bull.

But yea, DB totally is the best. A vast cast that wasn't irrelivent. Actual fights that were interesting and not just punch and throw big attacks until one yells loud enough to win. I loved watching the tournaments and the unique fighters and how yamcha, krillin, tien, ect were all someone you cared about watching and unique fighting styles. IN DBZ and later, it was just plain punch/kicks and balls of ki being tossed around. There were some shitty arcs, such as some of the red army ball chasing, but overall it was a fun adventure. In DBZ mostly you saw enemy, flew to some deserted area and then spend 100 chatpers fighting that enemy there.  

monocle_layton said:
I think Naruto is the same. In the originals, you see amazing power, but there is still an emphasis on strategy and brainpower.

I definitely love the original the most, but I can't say I hate any specific part of Dragonball. It's still enjoyable to me. As long as it isn't as bad as the Kaguya arc, I can't complain

 

Yea I definately agree on Naruto. To me, what lost me in Naruto was it becoming a DBZ clone and losing its Ninja'ness. You know, they basically tossing around attacks that are blowing up mountains and shit.

Oh and not ot mention the overpoweredness of eye powers. I so hate illusion based shit in stories. I feel like I would read 2-3 chatpers of Naruto and then being told that those last 2-3 chapters were all an illusion and the two characters were just standing there doing nothing. Or the annoying ass cliffhanger endings where someone "dies" or something only to be an illusions. Ect. 

And part 2 was huge into giant powers and illusions. Hated it.



Paperboy_J said:
Preach, brotha. I've been saying this for years, long before "Super" was even a thing. I thought even GT had more interesting things going on than Z and Super (I haven't seen Super yet, BTW, but I can imagine what it must be like).

if you are really a Dragon ball fan so try but if not i think you can live without it.