| sc94597 said: Great video on the topic here! |
I already posted this one on page 5. :)
The feedback was not so good if you like to go through the posts.
Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3
In Zelda, I liked the system at first but now I find myself not using weapons anymore. I just run away all the time to save my elemental weapons because I need the effect of heat / cold to survive and it takes a lot of work / time to get these weapons back if they are broken. Elemental weapons currently are my only option to withstand strong heat or cold.
| Peh said: Because you've mentioned Oblivion so often I will tackle this all at once. The issue I have with Oblivion foremost is, that the leveling and difficulty setting in this game is completely broken. First, you can adjust the difficulty with a slider on your own. Placing it on easy, better weapons loose their purpose because I can one - three hit kill each enemy from the beginning. So, I've found my explotation. There are no better weapons to be found, even in the quests. More and better weapons will be added by the leveling system. How do they accomplish this? By having all the hobos and bandits wear superior armor out of the sudden and this breaks the immersion. All I did was just going on with the quest and slaughtering everyone with a few hits and move on to the point on the map. It became stale really fast. Exploration was only good for finding new quests, but not for equipment, because it just wasn't there. Besides that, Oblivion had also other issues, but that is besides the point. |
Thank god you didn't go through each paragraph otherwhise that would have been one gigantic post. xD
Obviously, Oblivion is not a game without its issues. The difficulty slider is a dangerous option, because it works in weird ways (maximizing the slider at the very start and you could spend like 10 minutes just trying to kill rats). But to say that the voluntary choice of the player to adjust the slider to easy is what makes the issue prevalent is kind of moot, as the player is consciously spoiling himself doing that (and it's not in regards of what the video says of finding some amazing equipment when you start playing, because this is a different thing altogether). Would you say Catherine is an easy game because it has implemented a Super Easy difficult mode option? Would you say Fire Emblem Fates lacks any challenge whatsoever because it features a mode that revives any character that dies in the next turn? And to go for open-world games, which is what brings us here: outside the other balance systems, would you call The Witcher 3 a game devoid of any challenge and thrill because it features a difficulty mode heavily oriented to just experiencing the story and casualizing the combat?
But it's not flaws in Oblivion what I was looking after, nor trying to impose Oblivion's system over Breath of the Wild. Oblivion is just the example on which I tried highlighting that the points being made on that video can't be generalized (which is why I disagree with them). Oblivion has plenty of equipment that it's good hunting and finding even if you were to play with the easiest slider marked on, like daedric artifacts, over fifteen unique weapons (whose magical properties can also benefit your character outside combat) or certain attires like specific jewelry hidden in certain places. Going back to weapons, all those weapons can break, but they can also be repaired, and keeped, and used even if they're worn-out. Not even the game's "rebalance" when leveling up and giving enemies stronger equipment voids these, because these weapons and artifacts are ultimately above anything they can come with.
I simply don't agree with how the youtuber made the points across. He tried making Breath of the Wild the better system by highlighting how different it is, but it's not really better or worse, but just a different system that goes through a different convention than most open-world games. He tries making a point across people voluntarily going to grab end-game gear as if that were to give Breath of the Wild's system the edge, but since we've gone through that most people don't really know about that, nor games tend to let you carry it out unless you really know what you're doing. And I do disagree with the idea that looting weapons for quantity measure become the reason to keep exploring, because like I've explained earlier players seem to eventually lose their attachment to the weaponry. The loot never becomes exciting because they don't loot out of the pleasure of finding new, more powerful weaponry, especially since it's just a consumable. They don't want weapons for their uniqueness, they want weapons to keep the flow of the combat steady.
Skyrim with it's repair hammers is bliss
Peh said:
And the next thing you want is that every shrine is already located on your map and points you in that direction. |
My point was that they already put up "barriers" and other"levels requirements" for some weapons, so there's no reason to say the game wouldn't work if it had barriers" and other"levels requirements" for all weapons. The game itself demonstrates a system where a weapon isn't lost due to durability, and it works just fine.
And yes, I know that you have to pay for armor. I'm about 10 hours into the the game. Curious question though. How come armor doesn't have durability and is permanently destroyed like shields are? What is it about Hyrule that blacksmiths can make armor that can withstand thousands of blows, but only make shields that can handle a few dozen? How come link doesn't have to find new armor everywhere he goes just like he does weapons? How come no one is complaining that armor doesn't degrade like weapons do if it's such a great mechanic?
potato_hamster said:
My point was that they already put up "barriers" and other"levels requirements" for some weapons, so there's no reason to say the game wouldn't work if it had barriers" and other"levels requirements" for all weapons. The game itself demonstrates a system where a weapon isn't lost due to durability, and it works just fine. |
It's only the Master Sword which is just an optional key-element in the game whereas the rest of weapons are just there to be used and tossed away. They throw a huge amount of weapons at you, so you are actually never in the position of having no weapons at all.
Who knows why the choose this way. Maybe it would be too much of a pain to loose clothing during hot and cold environments, running around naked and then die because of it. Again, weapons lie everywhere around, maybe they could do the same with clothing, I don't know. There are a lot of stuff to wear already in the game. I just don't really think about it and take the game as it is. I can probably take an unlimited amount of arrows with me seeing I have over 120 arrows already and materials also have no real limit. Maybe 999 for each. There are also bows which can shoot 5 arrows at once by only consuming one. Those are certainly questionable design choices, but I personally have no real issue with them.
Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3
Peh said:
It's only the Master Sword which is just an optional key-element in the game whereas the rest of weapons are just there to be used and tossed away. They throw a huge amount of weapons at you, so you are actually never in the position of having no weapons at all. Who knows why the choose this way. Maybe it would be too much of a pain to loose clothing during hot and cold environments, running around naked and then die because of it. Again, weapons lie everywhere around, maybe they could do the same with clothing, I don't know. There are a lot of stuff to wear already in the game. I just don't really think about it and take the game as it is. I can probably take an unlimited amount of arrows with me seeing I have over 120 arrows already and materials also have no real limit. Maybe 999 for each. There are also bows which can shoot 5 arrows at once by only consuming one. Those are certainly questionable design choices, but I personally have no real issue with them. |
So what you're saying is that the lack of durability works just fine for armor, and thus you probably wouldn't miss weapon durability if it wasn't in the game. Thanks.
potato_hamster said:
Ohh, so because it's an open world action adventure game, the poorly designed weapon degredation feature makes perfect sense! Of course. Care to explain how BotW isn't an open world RPG? It seems to me the core of your argument is that previous games were action adventure, so this one must be too. That's so silly.The only thing it's really missing from a traditional open-world RPG is a skill tree. |
i disagree that it is poor game design, and I have yet to see a good argument for it. Anyways, im honestly getting tired of this argument, it's been blown way out of proportion, at worst it's a miner flaw in an already great game and at best it's an excellent new mechanic. If you don't like it, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I've played 40+ hours wth Zelda and have enjoyed every bit of it.
Something...Something...Games...Something
Peh said:
1. They cannot acommodate to every single one out there. There will always be someone who will nitpick or don't like certain features in a game. I and most other people on the other hand don't see this mechanic at an issue at all. If you don't like it, then I can't help you. It is like it is. If they would change it to something different, I will bet my ass that other people will still complain about it. Except that the previous system was done, for decades. And worked fine. 2. The old Zelda games had 1-2 swords at most and a few games had some upgrades to it. It is still and foremost an adventure game and not a RPG. But again, what's the point of exploring if most of the strong weapons are hidden behind not accessable parts of the game and appear later at certain locations you already visited before. This would ruin the exploration aspect. Nintendo wanted to get rid of most limitations you had like linearity. Without breaking the game you had to adjust and add certain mechanics to keep the motivation of exploration in the game high. And for me, it did it. The moment I've acquired a really strong weapon I was full of joy, because the journey was a bit more easier from now on, even if it is only temporarily, but this doesn't have to be the case. You can use the stronger weapons for stronger enemies, and attain their weapons as well. If you waste your good weapons on poor enemies, well, then I can't do much about it. It's your choice. So you're saying you didn't explore every other Zelda game, in the past. Soley because it was gated off? You didn't try to find heart pieces, ruppes, push objects. Us the rumble pack, to find hidden rooms. Get the candle, or find the raft. These are all present in the past games. And makes you explore just fine. BOTW is still linear. Because certain shrines can't be beaten. Unless you have certain health levels, or enough/good weapons. Which would require the inventory upgrades. So it's still forcing to tackle it later. And not when you want to do it. You could tackle these shrines. If, we didn't have the weapon durrability. Because we could last out the entire fight. This also causes cumbersome problems that past Zelda games didn't have to worry about. What is the primary role of the game. To figure out puzzles and fight patterns. A lot of these puzzles, you gotta test things. Take statis: You try out boulders in the shrine. But you where doing the wrong thing. You just wasted weapons. You reach the final section. You're out. Now, you're forced to leave, and farm stuff. This breaks pace of your game. In the past Zelda games. This did happen. But, only to arrows and bombs. Pots mitigated force leaving, to help. I'm not complaining that it makes it harder. It doesn't. What BOTW really does. Is a mastery, to waste your time. That's the key to the frustration. Your horse can't be called anywhere. The game even makes fun of it. To your face, when you first get one. Most of the time. Combined with the bad AI. I don't bother retreaving the horse. Once it complains it can't go here. Or that it decides to fall off a cliff. I end up just not using the horse. It's more time, to find it. VS just travel to where I want to go, on foot. Not even Witcher 3, did this.
Same goes for boss fights. You first have to figure out what it does. And what to hit. When you finally do. I have to end up dying. So I can get back my weapons. Than reload. Or have to leave and get stuff. Whenever I get into a main fight. And see the heath bar move very little. I abadon the battle. Because, I know I can't win. I don't have enough weapons. So I force a death. I don't even care that I have only 4 hearts. Once I memorize the pattern. I can dodge the one hit kills. I can't dodge weapons being used up. This game design basically wants you to pull up a walkthrough. So I know what to not attempt. Till I have X amount of slots and hearts. IE: It's still linear. Second: It also promotes explotation. I am current farming stamina, inventory slot ugprades, and hearts. Once I get most of them. I will than do the main quests. I will blast through them. |
Weapon durability is one of the worst mechanics in modern gaming. The sooner it dies, the better
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