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Angelus said:

If I might make things a little more clear, staff often sees criticism presented to them in a manner which isn't conducive to a good dialog. If you're coming at us with say, snide comments, or spurious arguments, then you're frankly just getting in the way of actual improvement. Everyone handles it differently, but ultimately it shuts down lines of communication, because people don't want to be dealing with that kind of behavior on a consistent basis. So it's not that staff isn't open to criticism, or that once you cross some sort of threshold, you've hit your limit for criticism we'll hear from you in a given day/week/month/whatever. We're simply asking people to be mindful of the fact that these are actual people, trying to make the site better for everyone in some capacity. Many of them without any form of compensation for their efforts. If you're making a habit of coming at them sideways, or talking down to them, under the guise of "criticism," then that's a problem, and we're going to be stricter on it moving forward.

That at least is my interpretation of the new rule(s). Obviously, insulting, or bullying anyone - regardless of whether or not they're staff - is against the rules across the board.

I think that if we are going this route, that everyone has to be more careful with what they say. If non-staff are going to be held to a higher standard in regards to interactions with the staff, then the staff also have to make sure that their interactions with non-staff are courteous and respectful.



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VGPolyglot said:
Angelus said:

If I might make things a little more clear, staff often sees criticism presented to them in a manner which isn't conducive to a good dialog. If you're coming at us with say, snide comments, or spurious arguments, then you're frankly just getting in the way of actual improvement. Everyone handles it differently, but ultimately it shuts down lines of communication, because people don't want to be dealing with that kind of behavior on a consistent basis. So it's not that staff isn't open to criticism, or that once you cross some sort of threshold, you've hit your limit for criticism we'll hear from you in a given day/week/month/whatever. We're simply asking people to be mindful of the fact that these are actual people, trying to make the site better for everyone in some capacity. Many of them without any form of compensation for their efforts. If you're making a habit of coming at them sideways, or talking down to them, under the guise of "criticism," then that's a problem, and we're going to be stricter on it moving forward.

That at least is my interpretation of the new rule(s). Obviously, insulting, or bullying anyone - regardless of whether or not they're staff - is against the rules across the board.

I think that if we are going this route, that everyone has to be more careful with what they say. If non-staff are going to be held to a higher standard in regards to interactions with the staff, then the staff also have to make sure that their interactions with non-staff are courteous and respectful.

I would agree



Angelus said:
VGPolyglot said:

I think that if we are going this route, that everyone has to be more careful with what they say. If non-staff are going to be held to a higher standard in regards to interactions with the staff, then the staff also have to make sure that their interactions with non-staff are courteous and respectful.

I would agree

 

CGI-Quality said:
VGPolyglot said:

I think that if we are going this route, that everyone has to be more careful with what they say. If non-staff are going to be held to a higher standard in regards to interactions with the staff, then the staff also have to make sure that their interactions with non-staff are courteous and respectful.

That's true. So, if they aren't, direct them to one of the Head Mods or a Site Admin. If one of those are the culprit, send it to another of them that isn't (in such a case, a PM would work better). We take a look at all complaints, regardless of stature here. 

Also, I'm not even saying that it's intentional, I just think that with all of the shit that the staff have to deal with, that they can sometimes give off a frustrated vibe which can make others a bit on edge too, and thus a cycle goes on with regular users attacking the staff, the staff getting frustrated and potentially having it come out in a way that they didn't intend, and onward.



These rules are good and all but please make sure ya don't overdue it. The forum is not as lively as it was a few years ago. Overpolicing speech is a surefire way to stifle conversation versus having to deal with a bit of grief online.



CGI-Quality said:
Aeolus451 said:
These rules are good and all but please make sure ya don't overdue it. The forum is not as lively as it was a few years ago. Overpolicing speech is a surefire way to stifle conversation versus having to deal with a bit of grief online.

The forum isn't as lively as it was years ago for a whole host of reasons. And there won't be any abundance of changes. I'm just making sure that every Staff member feels good enough here to continue doing their jobs, just like I'm going to make sure that users are offered a fair balance in being able to express their concerns about site issues.

That's good to hear.



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VGPolyglot said:
Angelus said:

If I might make things a little more clear, staff often sees criticism presented to them in a manner which isn't conducive to a good dialog. If you're coming at us with say, snide comments, or spurious arguments, then you're frankly just getting in the way of actual improvement. Everyone handles it differently, but ultimately it shuts down lines of communication, because people don't want to be dealing with that kind of behavior on a consistent basis. So it's not that staff isn't open to criticism, or that once you cross some sort of threshold, you've hit your limit for criticism we'll hear from you in a given day/week/month/whatever. We're simply asking people to be mindful of the fact that these are actual people, trying to make the site better for everyone in some capacity. Many of them without any form of compensation for their efforts. If you're making a habit of coming at them sideways, or talking down to them, under the guise of "criticism," then that's a problem, and we're going to be stricter on it moving forward.

That at least is my interpretation of the new rule(s). Obviously, insulting, or bullying anyone - regardless of whether or not they're staff - is against the rules across the board.

I think that if we are going this route, that everyone has to be more careful with what they say. If non-staff are going to be held to a higher standard in regards to interactions with the staff, then the staff also have to make sure that their interactions with non-staff are courteous and respectful.

I couldn't agree with this enough!! 



CGI-Quality said:
Kerotan said:

I couldn't agree with this enough!! 

Since that's the case, give me some examples of when Staff weren't courteous and respectful. For this to be of such concern, someone must have taken things too far already. I'd like to know who and when.

Well, for me these are grievances that happened in the past, I don't know if it's really necessary to re-open the old wounds.



Bandorr said:
Whenever I see someone get Permabanned I feel the urge to create a RIP thread.
Although I don't really know what I'd do with it. I don't typically know the people well so I can't write an e-obituaries.
Rolstoppable would probably be good at those though. They have a huge database on everyone.

There's really no reason to make a RIP thread for the likes of AlfredoPasta...



Hynad said:
Bandorr said:
Whenever I see someone get Permabanned I feel the urge to create a RIP thread.
Although I don't really know what I'd do with it. I don't typically know the people well so I can't write an e-obituaries.
Rolstoppable would probably be good at those though. They have a huge database on everyone.

There's really no reason to make a RIP thread for the likes of AlfredoPasta...

Wow just read his blowout "leaving" message, but.... how will we now know about how much he preferred to play the original games on the original hardware and how he doesn't like remakes? I'm just not sure I can go on without knowing that people enjoying games on new formats upset him.

New rules intention seems to be good, but when people speak about it being vague I'm guessing because rather than it being directly related to "you say X word, you get a time out" it's more vaguely "you talk to that person to the point they find it continuous badgering" that is down to how the recipient feels about the messages they're getting on the subject, say if someone has PM'd a mod 20 times in the last 2 weeks would that be considered continuous and badgering.... (and also should I stop?! :D ) it's just a rule based on feelings about messages rather than messages themselves, a single message with a lot of criticism could be the straw that breaks the proverbial camels back, would it be the last message which is considered to be the offender in this instance, or would you go back and see each time that the issues with a certain mod or member were raised and apply moderation across each of the critiquing messages.

I'm just saying that the first type of rule of "no saying X slur" it's clear who breaks it, a chain of messages by different users which spell out a slur with individual letters in posts... who gets the moderation? Easy to say "well, all of them of course" Now... what happens if those posts are days or weeks apart and in different threads? does the R at the end get the N from a month back banned?



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CGI-Quality said:
vivster said:

That makes it even less clear for me. What is an attack? What's bullying or badgering? Seems like critiquing is allowed. Is too much critiquing an attack or badgering? And what's too much?

Those rules seem superfluous since the described behavior is already be covered by rule 13 and 18 and 20. Rule 19 seems to add a lot of unneeded vagueness that will most likely lead to discussions. Discussions which might work actively against what you are trying to achieve with those new rules.

Negative. Each of those covers what they need to cover. The one about Staff is straightforward: don't give anyone a hard time. We don't mind reasonable criticism, but outright attacks/badgering/bullying etc, etc... isn't going to fly anymore. 

And there aren't multiple new rules. The only thing that wasn't there before were the bullets for Staff Criticism, which was not covered by any of the other rules. It is specific (and we have a thread going up soon that will discuss it in further detail). We already had rules that covered Mods and individual Flaming of users (which are different from continued criticism of Staff). Thus, it was combined with Website Criticism (making for a remaining total of 18 Rules). We don't mind some critiquing, but if you take things to a point, it will be in violation of the rule. It has been happening to Staff a lot lately, and as a result of much discussion with different forms of workers here, this was the best course of action.

You shouldn't have anything to worry about if you aren't someone who causes trouble. :)

I don't feel threatened by the new rule since I haven't been banned or even warned for my previous behavior. Unless of course the purpose of that new rule is to fix a loophole that prevented mods from moderating people for whatever reason they fancy, for example by formulating said new rule as vague as possible and leave interpretation completely up to the "victim" itself. What could go wrong.

I guess we'll find out whenever the first person is banned on the grounds of the new rule.



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