Ka-pi96 said:
It's entirely possible that both sides are the problem... it doesn't have to be one or the other. |
Well, that's where I think intent/context would come into account. If one side can be rehabilitated while the other cannot, I think it makes sense to try to stick with those who can change for the better.
CGI-Quality said:
You'd be surprised how many moderated people act this way. Like bristow said, there are a nice chunk that will own up to it, but unfortunately, the other side outweighs them by a good bit. From my own experience, I've gotten more hate PMs from people who were warned than banned, especially for Trolling. |
The question I have for you and bris. Are the people that own up have one or couple of small bans, or have you actually received apology from someone that is borderline on the chopping block if they continue.
Last edited by Acevil - on 23 February 2018 
CGI-Quality said:
We talked about it a bit. I don't think we reached a definitive conclusion, yet, but we know some things need to change. "Bullying" was one of the topics of discussion - so here's my question to you and the rest of the community... Where should we improve? Are we too lenient with some? Harsh with others? What would you guys like to see? |
Deal with the problem and issue at the source.
When one makes outlandish statements constantly, or has trouble being constructive about their opinions. For example if I want to every sales thread, and said Xbox One is going to do fail, and that this game for Xbox One is going to fail, that is clearly an issue. In this example it would appear I was focused on disturbing and not producing any real discussion.
Also these words of something is going to fail, or fall off, only have one meaning.
Last edited by Acevil - on 23 February 2018
RolStoppable said:
The NPD thread is the consequence of continuous inaction of the mod team who did not address a problem in an appropriate manner. It falls into the responsibility of the mod team to identify potential hazards and act accordingly. There has been growing discomfort in the community for months, it unloaded in the NPD thread and the group of participants in the bullying included members all the way up to administrator level. None of this came out of nowhere, because the signs were visible on a weekly basis. What happened in the NPD thread could have been prevented, and quite easily so. It would be unfair to blame the whole of the mod team for their oversight, because there was one moderator who verifiably addressed the core of the issue at one point. Unfortunately, it seems that further efforts of this particular mod were blocked by a consensus of the mod team, because I am not aware of any indicators that the mod in question had changed his mind on the issue. |
Are you referring to couple of trouble makers or the group of frequent harassers?
Acevil said:
So one user can be allowed to say remarks and ruin previous threads but when time catches up and factual evidence goes against them. Individuals breaking no rules are not allowed to make their own individual decision to tell someone they were wrong. As rol stated this behaviour has been going on for months. |
You should know there are better ways to handle that. I never said the said user should be allowed for those remarks hence I said poke him once or twice. If you think it's okay to bully someone or when the whole thread is about just one guy and asking the guy to admit his mistakes when you know he will never will. I think it's best to move on and ignore the guy. If that is more important to you Instead of discussing the topic at hand and if you think derailment by attacking the guy is not against the rules that it should be allowed on every topic then I am sorry I don't want to be part of that community. It will be just a pissing contest from here on out.
I think this image is suitable.
ClassicGamingWizzz said:
Let me guess, someone predicted nintendo selling worst than it did and now the same old same old are packing like voltures around him?
"The best way to solve any problem is to remove the cause of that problem."
who? the group of harassers that do the same thing since ages and dont give a fuck about rules or the new guy that just makes wrong predictions?
|
This need to be QFT aside from the Nintendo bit. I have seen this mentality for quite sometime now. I have seen it's a normal behavior for some users now and their not being moderated for this.
| Carl2291 said: Oh and I forgot to say. The best way to solve any problem is to remove the cause of that problem. |
@rol as well
again the troublemakers or the group of frequent harassers?
If the trouble makers then that's a temporary solution. You cannot stop a new user for being a troublemaker and the said group will harass again the new trouble makers. Also, If you are going to ban everyone who said a negative opinion that different from the majority and they are allowed to harass a guy for almost new sales thread that emerge. I guess it's not the trouble makers who is the problem but the community itself for being overly defensive over a company that doesn't care for them.
Because I have seen this time and time again. Being defensive over nothing and championing his preferred console.
Yeah it's very easy to point fingers without looking on what the real problem is.
Stop using fancy language use real man talk : if he doesnt clean up his act he gets hit with the fooking hammer
"I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007
Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions
Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.
| ClassicGamingWizzz said: Let me guess, someone predicted nintendo selling worst than it did and now the same old same old are packing like voltures around him? "The best way to solve any problem is to remove the cause of that problem." who? the group of harassers that do the same thing since ages and dont give a fuck about rules or the new guy that just makes wrong predictions? |
Calling someone out on wrong predictions, especially when they're being so cocky and sure about themselves, is never going to be considered as harassment or bullying. When they continue to move goalposts and deny the clear facts in front of them, they have all that's coming their way. The problem arises when they continue to display the disruptive behavior and it drags threads into slagging matches.
| Kerotan said: Yeah we will always have posters like Rick or myself who have controversial opinions. But the group of harassers need to be sorted out. That behaviour reminds me of gaf.. |
The sooner you stop playing the victim and acknowledge the problems that you directly caused on this forum, the sooner people on this forum will actually start to like you.
| NoCtiS_NoX said: @rol as well
again the troublemakers or the group of frequent harassers? |
It's not necessarily a negative opinion that causes trouble, it's not backing up that negative opinion that causes trouble. It's not admitting you were wrong, when you've been cockily pushing your thoughts on people for the last 30 days.
Did people go too far on quickrick? Possibly. We should have put a post in-thread to tell people that they've had enough fun for one day, but on the other hand? He brought that on himself. When you're so brazen and cocky in your predictions and they go tits up during the very first month of the year, you've got some shit coming your way son. When you refuse to admit you screwed up and you decide to move goalposts instead of admitting you were wrong? Get ready to be ridiculed by people who've been waiting to call you out on it.
The perfect reaction from the mod team to this would have been both a post in-thread and a warning to quickrick. He's had at least one moderation already for ignoring peoples arguments and moving goalposts, I know this without actually double checking his mod history, but he did eventually admit he was wrong in the NPD thread. It's a start. It's an improvement.
We can't let threads be dragged off topic by gangs of people poking at one guy, but we also can't let one guy be so disruptive to the community without proper confrontation by the mod team when he doesn't take responsibility for his actions.
We either go after the group of people mocking the disruptive party, or we remove the disruptive party from the situation.
NoCtiS_NoX said:
You should know there are better ways to handle that. I never said the said user should be allowed for those remarks hence I said poke him once or twice. If you think it's okay to bully someone or when the whole thread is about just one guy and asking the guy to admit his mistakes when you know he will never will. I think it's best to move on and ignore the guy. If that is more important to you Instead of discussing the topic at hand and if you think derailment by attacking the guy is not against the rules that it should be allowed on every topic then I am sorry I don't want to be part of that community. It will be just a pissing contest from here on out.
|
Out of curiosity, why didn't you stop arguing with Miyamato that one media create thread. It was very similar, just slightly on the smaller scale (Media creates don't go 300 posts usually). In this example one user actually harassed the guy to the point it was harassment.
| RolStoppable said: I am refering to a single troublemaker (quickrick). In another post I provided a more detailed explanation of what happened and why it happened. It looks as if you are conveniently ignoring the posts that go against the conclusion you've already drawn. Said conclusion is that the bullies of the NPD thread are the bigger problem by a significant margin. Dealing with a troublemaker is actually a permanent solution. The fork in the road here is that the troublemaker either changes his way or that he will get banned, so either path will result in more peaceful discussions. The massbullying in this specific case is merely a symptom of a disease. Carl's statement means that he wants to treat the disease. |
I already read the long reply you did with CGI. I agree on how mods will handle the troublemaker from here on out as you suggested.
But for me that one part of the problem that needs to address what is more important is I want is a shake up on the community or a wake up call.
I think you don't get what I am trying point at and I am sorry for not explaining it well. I already explained it to CGI on PM convo. I think this will be my best explanation and excuse me for my not so perfect grammar. Thanks.
Harassment and constant childish baiting is been happening pre-quickrick. NPD is just the tipping point for me. If the NPD thread is all about personal attacks and it's because of one guy. Quickrick just expose how easily triggered some users on this site really are and what's really wrong about this site.
Let's perma-ban him for example. Now, few months later or when PS5 or the new Xbo. Another new set of users will emerge some will be pessimistic about Nintendo or Playstation. Now, since it's okay to harass a user here because of what he said on the sales thread then the vicious cycle of harassment will continue on the next thread. The constant childish baiting will be normal and maybe another NPD or other sales thread will be littered with personal attacks again. What if the user is just really giving out his honest opinion and maybe used a hyperbolic statement for his opinion? But the same said users continually harass him?
What are the negative effect of this since we can bully or harass a guy here. A new user will be scared to provide a criticism in fear of being mobbed or harass or being a laughing stock because of indifference of opinion. Some guy would rather skip the thread altogether because of the toxic behavior because we can only say something positive or don't say something at all or this this set of guys will live the site or worst we are going to create another trouble maker because they are getting famous.
We are here to share our passion, to discuss, to debate and have an opinion. We are not here to be constantly harass on every thread.
As I mentioned it's hard to stop a new user from being negative or there will be a time that there will be a new trouble maker or just being a pessimistic will emerge.
If the same set users keeps on baiting the guy on every thread and when the guy enter the thread and wreaks havoc again on the thread is it really the fault only of the trouble maker? or the set of users who baited the guy is at fault as well?
That's why I don't understand the logic of some users here on constantly baiting a trouble maker. This is just me but I would rather not bait them and seeing them on the thread I am going to post in and having a normal discussion with other level headed users or I can ignore them rather than engaging them were I cannot convince them even if I provided them facts.
How about the community learn not to bait the trouble makers or to not easily triggered by a negative opinion or ignore them and use the report button. If reporting is not working then post the said post in here and let the mod to the work. If they didn't provide any action then we can blame the MODS for not doing their job. The thing that happen in the NPD thread is not just mods fault or the trouble makers fault but the community itself for allowing one guy to ruin a thread by responding and constant baiting and not doing the thing I have said above. Like I said it easy to point fingers without addressing the real issue here.
I am not saying Quickrick should not be ban if he deserved it by all means MODS ban him.
What I am suggesting is the constant Childish baiting should be stop and should incur warnings and ban if needed for repeated offence. We cannot just blame the trouble makers if we ourselves doing what's against the rules. 
I perfect example of what I am trying to say.
One last thing.
I am not against by telling a guy he is wrong because that can bring to a healthy discussion as long both parties are willing to engage on a mature convo.
I am not against poking fun of some pessimistic or overly optimistic prediction.
I am not against if some one is mocking you for having a prediction and said something stupid about you and you poke them by posting crow memes. That's what they get for mocking you.
It's not wrong to gloat if you got something right that's the essence of exchanging opinion and you got it right.
|
Carl2291 said:
It's not necessarily a negative opinion that causes trouble, it's not backing up that negative opinion that causes trouble. It's not admitting you were wrong, when you've been cockily pushing your thoughts on people for the last 30 days. Did people go too far on quickrick? Possibly. We should have put a post in-thread to tell people that they've had enough fun for one day, but on the other hand? He brought that on himself. When you're so brazen and cocky in your predictions and they go tits up during the very first month of the year, you've got some shit coming your way son. When you refuse to admit you screwed up and you decide to move goalposts instead of admitting you were wrong? Get ready to be ridiculed by people who've been waiting to call you out on it. The perfect reaction from the mod team to this would have been both a post in-thread and a warning to quickrick. He's had at least one moderation already for ignoring peoples arguments and moving goalposts, I know this without actually double checking his mod history, but he did eventually admit he was wrong in the NPD thread. It's a start. It's an improvement. We can't let threads be dragged off topic by gangs of people poking at one guy, but we also can't let one guy be so disruptive to the community without proper confrontation by the mod team when he doesn't take responsibility for his actions. We either go after the group of people mocking the disruptive party, or we remove the disruptive party from the situation. |
How about both? What good it will do if you just moderate one? And see my response above with rol.
Acevil said:
Out of curiosity, why didn't you stop arguing with Miyamato that one media create thread. It was very similar, just slightly on the smaller scale (Media creates don't go 300 posts usually). In this example one user actually harassed the guy to the point it was harassment. |
I gave him the benefit of the doubt and wanted to show him facts. Out of curiosity did you miss the part that a mod step in and proper moderation was given. Also, Miyamoto wishes to continue it via PM?
Out of curiosity do you want Miyamoto to be perma banned as well? This is a legit question.
Did I insult him and bait him every chance I get on the next thread or the next thread after that? Did I baited him when PS4 outselling NSW for 5-6 times in a row now? No need to gloat. The facts are there. It's up to him if he still thinks that way though. I just simply move on. Can I say the same thing about the NPD thread? Or some people cannot just let it go? to the point that they will resort to personal insult and constant baiting.
| RolStoppable said: There are definitely people who throw a fit over negativitiy much sooner than the average user, so I agree that that is something that the mod team also needs to pay attention to. However, those people have only been a minority in the NPD thread, so it's really only a few people who are looking to escalate a problem. You are understating how much of the responsibility falls on quickrick. I only see you commenting on a select few sales-related threads (basically data from official trackers and company shipments), so it's easily possible that you've never seen how bad it really was. Another indicator of this is that it took the most recent NPD thread as a tipping point for you, but that tipping point would have come earlier if you had visited more of the sales-related threads in the last three months. You can take a look at quickrick's sign-up date and his post count; the vast majority of his posts were in sales threads and the vast majority of those posts were negative about Nintendo. I do not share your concern that new users would be scared to post their opinions, because awareness of the quickrick case makes it clear that people don't get picked on randomly, but rather that someone becomes a target if they have continuously behaved disrespectfully. While quickrick may get personally attacked for a negative outlook on Nintendo's prospects, at the same time many other posters do not get personally attacked for a pessimistic outlook because they are able to present their views in a respectful manner. Asking the community to ignore someone isn't a realistic solution. Ignoring someone means that their posts and arguments will remain unchallenged and therefore ignoring fuels the belief of said person that they are correct in what they say. Reports for such users are iffy because the mod team commonly does not act if rules haven't been blatantly violated, so this leads back to self-justice. The most important thing that needs to happen is that the mod team makes a bigger effort against disruptive behavior, because the mod team is the voice of authority. They have more means at their disposal than just warnings and bans in order to control discussions and reduce the disruptive behavior that inevitably fuels tension in the community. |
I am not understating anything. I am all for people getting banned if they deserved it. I am not saying the bullying and harassment and constant baiting outweighs the trouble makers are doing. For me regardless on what the reasons is. if you break the rule you should be moderated and harassment and constant baiting is one of them. No ifs or buts. I am just telling you troublemakers is one part of the problem. If you solely focus on one problem. What good it will do if some or a lot of users can get away with the other infraction. You are sending a message to a new users that it's possible I will be harass or I can get away this and that.
Also, If you think they are the minority then why some people posted their disgust on what happen? The constant baiting and harassment is evident and it should not happen regardless on what Quickrick did on the threads prior. There's always a limit. I get it Rick is annoying and annoyed a lot of people but I think the poster there is capable of being mature and handled it better. We can't just claimed what happen to that thread is just on guys fault. The mods for letting it happen, the people who broke the rules by baiting and harassing a guy just to proved a point and obviously the troublemaker.
3rd: let's agree to disagree then. I can see your point and it's valid but I still raised valid point. IMO We just see it differently.
4th: @bold It's that really important for some? Sorry the image below reminds me of the bold and my sentiments on the matter.
At the other parts Yes I agree with it I will not challenged that.
I apologize, I think this will be my last response or reply to you. Just like what I said above. You are providing valid points on what are need to be address. I am just proposing the other part of the problem needs to be address aswell.
You proposed a great solution on your response to CGI and I will concede to that but I hope you will also see what I am trying to point at. Thanks, have a good weekend.
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