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Forums - Gaming Discussion - FFXV's Sales In Japan: It Is Time For Japanese Devs To Support Switch?

Soundwave on 08 December 2016
BraLoD said:
LipeJJ said:

This is not funny, really. I think OP is exaggerating a bit, but the japanese industry's future will rely on Switch's success (or failure) indeed.

Why? Because now there is no 3DS or 100% portable system from Nintendo anymore, so that's 1 less huge system there. There probably won't be a Vita successor either, so another big system not being there. So that leaves just PS4 and Switch and their successors, as Xbox is insignificant there. So, as you can see, the entire japanese industry can't rely only on 1 system (PS4 and future Playstations)... that's simply not viable. Especially since it doesn't even sell that well (will be lucky to surpass 10m consoles sold). That's why they need the Switch to succeed: it's another viable platform to develop for and since japanese games rarely are demanding, I'm sure 99% of third parties could develop one version for one console and port it to the other one without much hurdles. I think this will benefit PS4 as well, since it makes the chances of japanese third parties succeding bigger.

Nope, both the nonsense argumentation at the OP and where it come from to where its trying to hit, are hilarious, plus that image is hilarious as well, that was a great answer to the thread, so the reason why I laughed and considered the input enough to sum the whole thread, thus ending it.

Over 100 posts away from it, it's still the best answer to the thread, compared to all the back and forth going on here leading to nothing because there is nothing to be gotten from it.

The longer part of your post is sadly you trying to reason on something that is not really what the thread is about, like other people are doing here, because people do actually have some arguments going on for it, but the OP is about cherry picking a single side of a mult sided story, mixing it with personal goals, and luring people to deliver actual discussion over something else.

The OP is about Sony is the reason FF dropped, from a height they reached when getting to Sony to begin with, giving zero data to back up why a non existent system from an audience that doesn't consume said products for the last two decades would be a better choice and a "savior", and ignoring the full impact of the game and that decision in the process.

There is nothing to be gotten here, seriously.

Switch isn't a "non-existant" system. It's the successor to the market leading system in Japan -- the 3DS, which is launching in a small handful of months. 

You guys are taking it too much as a shot to Sony when it's not intended as such. 

It's simply stating what is becoming a more and more obvious point -- the Switch is the last, best hope for any semblance of a traditional game market in Japan. 

What's happening now is becoming more and more of a disaster over there, and no one specifically is to blame, but it is what it is. Dedicated gaming in Japan needs a strong platform with a large userbase. 

I think what I'm asking for is honestly probably happening anyway. Cloud in Smash Bros. just randomly showing up and the Amiibo being held off for post Switch launch ... along with Square-Enix also jumping the gun ahead of everyone and basically announcing the first Switch game (Dragon Quest XI) shows I think they know this too. They need to support the Switch, it is a matter of saving the Japanese game market and it's the best hope of doing so. 

PS4 has had its shot and I don't think it's going to do it. It's been on the market now there in Japan for almost 3 years and has now had several big games released for it and it's just not lifting the industry there at all. This is simply a fact. Nintendo with Pokemon, Mario, Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Zelda, and a portable hybrid system are a far better bet, Japanese developers should realize this and support the system with all their might. 

 



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Safiir on 08 December 2016
Soundwave said:
BraLoD said:

Nope, both the nonsense argumentation at the OP and where it come from to where its trying to hit, are hilarious, plus that image is hilarious as well, that was a great answer to the thread, so the reason why I laughed and considered the input enough to sum the whole thread, thus ending it.

Over 100 posts away from it, it's still the best answer to the thread, compared to all the back and forth going on here leading to nothing because there is nothing to be gotten from it.

The longer part of your post is sadly you trying to reason on something that is not really what the thread is about, like other people are doing here, because people do actually have some arguments going on for it, but the OP is about cherry picking a single side of a mult sided story, mixing it with personal goals, and luring people to deliver actual discussion over something else.

The OP is about Sony is the reason FF dropped, from a height they reached when getting to Sony to begin with, giving zero data to back up why a non existent system from an audience that doesn't consume said products for the last two decades would be a better choice and a "savior", and ignoring the full impact of the game and that decision in the process.

There is nothing to be gotten here, seriously.

Switch isn't a "non-existant" system. It's the successor to the market leading system in Japan -- the 3DS, which is launching in a small handful of months. 

You guys are taking it too much as a shot to Sony when it's not intended as such. 

It's simply stating what is becoming a more and more obvious point -- the Switch is the last, best hope for any semblance of a traditional game market in Japan. 

What's happening now is becoming more and more of a disaster over there, and no one specifically is to blame, but it is what it is. Dedicated gaming in Japan needs a strong platform with a large userbase. 

I think what I'm asking for is honestly probably happening anyway. Cloud in Smash Bros. just randomly showing up and the Amiibo being held off for post Switch launch ... along with Square-Enix also jumping the gun ahead of everyone and basically announcing the first Switch game (Dragon Quest XI) shows I think they know this too. They need to support the Switch, it is a matter of saving the Japanese game market and it's the best hope of doing so. 

PS4 has had its shot and I don't think it's going to do it. It's been on the market now there in Japan for almost 3 years and has now had several big games released for it and it's just not lifting the industry there at all. This is simply a fact. Nintendo with Pokemon, Mario, Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Zelda, and a portable hybrid system are a far better bet, Japanese developers should realize this and support the system with all their might. 

 

Just asking an honest question since I haven't checked - how are the 3rd party games doing in Japan on the 3ds. You keep giving examples with Nintendo's IPs but how good was the 3ds for non-Nintendo games? Again I honestly don't know how they're doing and am trying to understand your point.



Soundwave on 08 December 2016
BraLoD said:
Soundwave said:

Switch isn't a "non-existant" system. It's the successor to the market leading system in Japan -- the 3DS, which is launching in a small handful of months. 

Doesn't matter when it's supposedly launching, comercially it's non existent, the consumer can't have a personal ownership over it right now, even if someone can pre-order it, until it releases, it doesn't exist, it's only a concept, not a product, proof is if it never releases for some reason it never existed in the market on any point, thus it still doesn't exist, being irrelevant to any discussion regarding it.

What you think or predict is something, but until there is any kind of real data backing it up, it's just that, what you think.

You don't know if it'll even have power to run Final Fantasy XV, much less its sucessors;
You don't know how much it'll even sell, if it'll pull 3DS or Wii U number, which are two worlds appart, even on Japan, and you are calling Switch, a non-existent product, the only possible savior to the series;
You don't know if it'll be succesful worldwide, even talking about Japan, if it doesn't meet the requirement of being a better avenue to sell Final Fantasy games worldwide, making the jump you want is pointless, as it'll only cause harm to the franchise, even if it grows in Japan;
You don't know if it even being succesful will mean it'll have the audience that buys that product, as you are using data related to sales on PlayStation to begin with, which is the reason why the series ever reached such heights in Japan and Worldwide as well, while Nintendo doesn't get a mainline FF in the last two decades, and 3rd party games have only being less and less succesful on Nintendo platforms;
You don't know what Square Enix is aiming with the franchise, as popular opinion has been it has been trying to deliver it to the western consumer as the major target, so Japan may not be what drive their decisions regarding the series to begin with, while they have other franchises more focused on doing so;

The lack of substance on the "reasoning" you are trying to do here, is what is driving people to disagree, suspect, or laugh at.
It's simply pure wishing, really. Which doesn't mean you are wrong, but certainly doesn't point to you being right.

It's actually a double standard. 

Saying Tomb Raider for example should be on the PS4 isn't "laughable" it's treated as fact or an entitlement for example. 

Nintendo has sold the most hardware the last 10 years in Japan by two country miles. Their portables are the only thing that sell well in Japan. Saying that when it comes to the JAPANESE market they are entitled to some respect is not an outrageous claim. 

Sony's had 3 years now to build up the PS4 in Japan and gotten tons of Japanese developer support along with the announcement of Dragon Quest XI and still only have a mediocre 3.4 million systems to show for it. How are you supposed to sell a AAA Japanese game on a userbase that anemic? Japan needs a system that can sell 20 million units. This 3-4-5 million shit ain't gonna cut it. 

Nintendo Switch is the best hope for Japan, and developers (if they haven't already) better start waking up to that reality. PS4 is not taking the Japanese market anywhere. It's time for Japanese developers to refocus on the ONLY platform that has a real shot of breaking out in Japan and that's the Switch. 



Safiir on 08 December 2016

Ok I think I've somewhat answered my question. So I've summed the sales of the top 50 games for 3ds and as far as Japan goes about 75% of those games are Nintendo games. Which is not so bad. Until you realize that out of those 25% 2/3 are Monster hunter games. Which really leaves less than 10% of the sales for 3rd party games. This is a really brutal competition for any 3rd party dev.

 

Edit: Just a disclaimer - I know this analysis is far from extensive and would love if someone does a better one.



Intrinsic on 08 December 2016
burninmylight said:

The PS2 games would have worked on GameCube just fine. At most, they would have required extra discs.

And I always take the size of current games with a grain of salt, because devs these days don't give a shit about size optimization/compression. Now that every consumer has a hard drive built into their console and has shown a willingness to deal with it being filled up quickly, why should they care about tightening up file sizes? It's your problem now.

Heres a little thing aboutsize optimizations (aka compression). Comoressed data has to be decompressed in realtime to be  used on a frame by frame basis. That usually adds significant CPU load to a render pipeline. With games what they are today, using higher rez textures, shadow maps, tons of audio and a lot of all the things I just mentioned, and with the complex systems these games have to run alongside all those things, aggressive compression just isn't an option. And don't even get started with memory bandwidth.

if you just tried a little to understand why these things are the way the are now instead of just assume that they are doing something wrong because they are lazy then maybe you would understand. There is a reason why Nintendo games generally are built, look and sound a certian way. Most call it charm, in truth its more due to technical limitations. 

Wonder why even in BotW NPCs don't talk?



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Soundwave on 08 December 2016
Safiir said:

Ok I think I've somewhat answered my question. So I've summed the sales of the top 50 games for 3ds and as far as Japan goes about 75% of those games are Nintendo games. Which is not so bad. Until you realize that out of those 25% 2/3 are Monster hunter games. Which really leaves less than 10% of the sales for 3rd party games. This is a really brutal competition for any 3rd party dev.

 

Edit: Just a disclaimer - I know this analysis is far from extensive and would love if someone does a better one.

Which is partly third parties' fault. They stopped making 3DS games, because obviously Nintendo never gets the benefit of the doubt ever, and decided to experiement with mobile and even Vita projects, even though Vita has less than 1/4 the marketshare. 

You can't build an ecosystem with variety if you're not getting any help from developers in doing so. 

Resident Evil Revelations sold about a million copies on the 3DS. So what does Capcom do? They make RE Revelations 2 for every major system BUT the 3DS. That is the idiotic logic that Japanese developers get bogged down in. Predictably RE Revelations 2 doesn't do so hot. Super Street Fighter IV also sold over a million copies on 3DS, did Capcom ever bother with any other fighter on the system? Nope. 

Square-Enix didn't even bother giving the 3DS a Final Fantasy branded game other than two music based games, you tell me if the Vita sold 20 million like the 3DS did that it would be treated like that. 

The big third party games that *are* on the 3DS and are original content tend to sell great. Monster Hunter is even expanding out its audience in the West on the 3DS and doing great in Japan. Yokai Watch has broken out big time as a huge hit in Japan, one of the biggest new IP that Japan has seen in ages. Dragon Quest continues to sell very on 3DS. 



Safiir on 08 December 2016

Actually revelations sold only 300k in Japan and Street Fighter 4 only 140k. Also revelations 2 sold poorly on every console. Making it on 3ds wouldn't have changed much.



Soundwave on 08 December 2016
Safiir said:

Actually revelations sold only 300k in Japan and Street Fighter 4 only 140k. Also revelations 2 sold poorly on every console. Making it on 3ds wouldn't have changed much.

Revelations is at 880k on VGChartz, which isn't bad, the sequel likely would've sold more on the 3DS. 

SSFIV sold 1.2 million worldwide on 3DS. That's not a bad chunk of change for a very late port. 

It was Capcom's call to make basically only Monster Hunter games for the 3DS ... which also sold very well. 



Safiir on 08 December 2016
Soundwave said:
Safiir said:

Actually revelations sold only 300k in Japan and Street Fighter 4 only 140k. Also revelations 2 sold poorly on every console. Making it on 3ds wouldn't have changed much.

Revelations is at 880k on VGChartz, which isn't bad, the sequel likely would've sold more on the 3DS. 

SSFIV sold 1.2 million worldwide on 3DS. That's not a bad chunk of change for a very late port. 

It was Capcom's call to make basically only Monster Hunter games for the 3DS ... which also sold very well. 

Ok you said that the west should not be bailing out japanese games. Why are you now using sales numbers from the west?



Soundwave on 08 December 2016
BraLoD said:
Soundwave said:

It's actually a double standard. 

Saying Tomb Raider for example should be on the PS4 isn't "laughable" it's treated as fact or an entitlement for example. 

Nintendo has sold the most hardware the last 10 years in Japan by two country miles. Their portables are the only thing that sell well in Japan. Saying that when it comes to the JAPANESE market they are entitled to some respect is not an outrageous claim. 

Sony's had 3 years now to build up the PS4 in Japan and gotten tons of Japanese developer support along with the announcement of Dragon Quest XI and still only have a mediocre 3.4 million systems to show for it. How are you supposed to sell a AAA Japanese game on a userbase that anemic? Japan needs a system that can sell 20 million units. This 3-4-5 million shit ain't gonna cut it. 

Nintendo Switch is the best hope for Japan, and developers (if they haven't already) better start waking up to that reality. PS4 is not taking the Japanese market anywhere. It's time for Japanese developers to refocus on the ONLY platform that has a real shot of breaking out in Japan and that's the Switch. 

The situation is not even comparable.
PS4 is the actual global market leader, PS4 already had a Tomb Raider multiplat and it was the best selling version (the PS3 also was regarding 7th gen), PS4 is the actual sucessor to the systems where Tomb Raider sold the most... there is nothing even comparable to Nintendo starting to get FF now after two decades of not having it while selling gangbusters on Sony hardware, higher than when it was with Nintendo as well.

No one is saying stop making PS4 versions. I'm saying though that these games should be on Switch, and too fucking bad if it requires a little work on the developer's part to get it there. 

The Switch is not *that* far off from the XBox One, certainly not the gap that the Wii was to the 360/PS3. And Japanese gamers don't give a crap about graphical downgrades or no 4K or checkerboard mip mapped super real toe nail rendering or something. That stuff ain't moving consoles. 

Yes Sony/Square had a nice run together in the late 90s/early 2000s, but it's not the late 90s/early 2000s anymore as FFXV's opening week brutally shows. 

It's time to take Nintendo more seriously as an option for pushing these games. And part of having an audience for said games is for third parties to step up and actually build that audience. It's time for developers to suck up their ego and meet Nintendo half way here, the bullshit expectations on Nintendo that they should some how sell 20-30 million systems off their own software before being taking seriously is ridiculous. Sony wouldn't even sell 10 million units of anything without being carried by third party developers. 

How about this ... mind blowing fucking concept here, why don't Japanese developers just treat "Switch" like a blank platform. It's not a Nintendo, it's not a Sony, it's just something that's going to sell because conceptually it's more in line with modern Japanese gaming habits (namely being able to play portably). This is not a "guess" or an assumption it's a rock solid fact at this point. So support it. Bring you audience to the table and that will create a snowball effect where the platform has diversity and thus gains continual momentum. 

That's a hardware concept that more Japanese are likely to gravitate to than the tired shoe box sized home console. That concept has simply had its time in Japan and its not going anywhere up, but sinking into a depressing death knell.