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Forums - Politics Discussion - I'm ignorant about politics. But I know I want change.

Because Trump is an actual outsider to politics and DC and even the Republican Party he would be the perfect once-in-a-lifetime chance for real beneficial change to happen in Washington. He is a self-made man who owes nobody no favor and needs no more power or celebrity. He will be taking a giant pay cut to be president, and would 'go away' after his term is over. He doesn't know the 'system' of DC, but advisors can easily show the way to him. Good and Bad there. However he has a way to be too "NY" attitude to me to really like him. I hate her enough to dislike him less, just like most voters, either affiliation, this go-round. It won't be boring for 4 years with him as Pres for sure, with the media hating on him so much...could be fun! And we really do need a 'wall' and someone to make America a priority over other people for a change. We got problems that need attention right now.



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Wiibaron said:
Because Trump is an actual outsider to politics and DC and even the Republican Party he would be the perfect once-in-a-lifetime chance for real beneficial change to happen in Washington. He is a self-made man who owes nobody no favor and needs no more power or celebrity. He will be taking a giant pay cut to be president, and would 'go away' after his term is over. He doesn't know the 'system' of DC, but advisors can easily show the way to him. Good and Bad there. However he has a way to be too "NY" attitude to me to really like him. I hate her enough to dislike him less, just like most voters, either affiliation, this go-round. It won't be boring for 4 years with him as Pres for sure, with the media hating on him so much...could be fun! And we really do need a 'wall' and someone to make America a priority over other people for a change. We got problems that need attention right now.

Trump would be no different IMO. 

He is a walking, talking corporation, this idea that he would be some kind of a anti-corporatist is laughable. He would have dozens of Wall Street ties pulling him right and left. 

I also think he would bail on things like the Wall and basically just continue Obama's already established policies on illegal immigration. In fact he's already said basically that, lol. He talks a big game (which is written right into his book "The Art of the Deal" ... fake it, exagerrate yourself, etc.) about Mexicans for example, yet he didn't even whisper the word "wall" when meeting with the Mexican president. Even he knows deep down a lot of what he says is bullshit. 

He played all those stupid xenophobes into thinking he really gives a shit. 

Trump is a unique political force because in the end I actually don't think he has any principals really whatsoever, outside of a vague "American huff and puff your chest-ism". Trump's ideolgy is Trump-ism, it's do whatever, say whatever, bullshit whatever, but make sure you get yourself into power, some how, some way.

The White House I think really for him deep down is the ultimate vanity prize, he's made a living "collecting" building (or at least being able to put his brand name on buildings), having the White House in his collection would be the ultimate prize for his ego. 

Principal wise, I think he's actually more liberal than he lets on. Dude is flat out lying when he says for example that he's pro-life ... he was pro-choice in his 50s .... he "changed" his mind in his late 60s ... yeah c'mon. 



Soundwave said:

Yes I think the alt-right will sink, because 50%+ of people under the age of 10 in the US are now a visible minority, so scapegoating "minorities" for white people consuming drugs (for example) or saying crime is rising with immigration (when it is lower now than it was in the 1980s) isn't going to work forever. 

Mass immigration has been going on since the 60s. It's one of the reasons why crime was so high in the 80s. You know what's gone way up since then? The prison population. The US has the highest per-capita incarceration rate in the world: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm

Who are the people in the prisons? 

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_ethnicity.jsp

33.6% Hispanic, 37.8% Black. So, yes, crime has gone down since the 80s, but only because we started imprisoning millions of minorities.

Furthermore, this has nothing to do with 'scapegoating'. Even disregarding the economic and legal burdens, diversity significantly reduces social capital in a community, as the groups have different cultural norms and ideologies.

You still haven't addressed why whites are the only race not allowed to live among those of the same race in peace.

This is the alt-right's big chance, they got a favorable field of pissy weak Republican candidates and Hilary Clinton who has a lot of baggage and isn't a particularily charismatic or charming personality (Obama would've wrecked Trump if he could have run, I have zero doubt about that). 

I think "Generation Z" was mainly motivated moreso by Bernie Sanders, but because he was in a bitter race with Clinton, that has put Clinton in a bad light with that crowd, but people also learn to not be such (hate to say it) whiny bitches when they lose. You come around and support the candidate that is closer to your optimal views, that is part of being an adult (making sound decisions and accepting you don't get the picture perfect thing every time in life). Kids learn that when get to college and into their 20s and realize life doesn't give two shits about them and is waiting to slap them around. That's where idealism meets reality.

You say that like Clinton appeals more to Bernie voters than Trump does. In reality, Trump and Bernie both appeal to the same working-class demographic. Just look at their views on free trade. Trump's America First policy is probably pretty appealing to those people who were screwed over by big businesses and Wall Street, while Hillary is literally the candidate of Wall Street.

I do think while Bernie did not win this time, a person from the Sanders "movement" will eventually win in the future. Trump ... I'm more inclined to believe is a one off. 

Say what you want about him, and I have been as critical of him as anyone on this board, but he does have an interesting personality, a cult-ish egocentric show biz appeal that won't be easy to replicate IMO. 

This is certainly not a one-off. The more egregious the hypocricy and injustices are, the more people will be drawn to the Trump movement. Sure, Trump isn't the best candidate, but he's the first to explicitly appeal to nationalism in a long time.

And the USA has always been a country of immigrants, it is not some ethno-centric society. Big portions of the US were built right over top of Mexico, there were hundreds of thousands of black slaves, Asian laborers, and Italian, Irish, and other communities lived in their own little "enclaves" seperated from each other early on too. It's always been a melting pot of different types of people. 

I've already argued about this:

StarDoor said:

And here we see the greatest myth (i.e. lie) ever concocted in American history.

The Statue of Liberty was a French-gifted statue that went up in 1886, over a hundred years after the country was born. The fact that Emma Lazarus wrote a poem about immigrants (whom she hilariously called refuse, a.k.a. garbage) for the pedestal means nothing about the origin of the United States.

The United States was founded by English people. It was built on English culture, uses the English language, and has an English form of government. It is not a nation of “open borders” and “multiple cultures.” It’s an English nation that managed to assimilate other Europeans into one culture. And for the tens of millions who came in the later 19th and early 20th century, assimilation only happened after legal immigration was curbed in 1924.

“Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a colony of aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them?” -Benjamin Franklin

Immigration policy was explicitly white for nearly two centuries. It only changed in 1965 against the will of the people.



StarDoor said:
Soundwave said:

Yes I think the alt-right will sink, because 50%+ of people under the age of 10 in the US are now a visible minority, so scapegoating "minorities" for white people consuming drugs (for example) or saying crime is rising with immigration (when it is lower now than it was in the 1980s) isn't going to work forever. 

Mass immigration has been going on since the 60s. It's one of the reasons why crime was so high in the 80s. You know what's gone way up since then? The prison population. The US has the highest per-capita incarceration rate in the world: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm

Who are the people in the prisons? 

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_ethnicity.jsp

33.6% Hispanic, 37.8% Black. So, yes, crime has gone down since the 80s, but only because we started imprisoning millions of minorities.

Furthermore, this has nothing to do with 'scapegoating'. Even disregarding the economic and legal burdens, diversity significantly reduces social capital in a community, as the groups have different cultural norms and ideologies.

You still haven't addressed why whites are the only race not allowed to live among those of the same race in peace.

This is the alt-right's big chance, they got a favorable field of pissy weak Republican candidates and Hilary Clinton who has a lot of baggage and isn't a particularily charismatic or charming personality (Obama would've wrecked Trump if he could have run, I have zero doubt about that). 

I think "Generation Z" was mainly motivated moreso by ((Bernie Sanders)), but because he was in a bitter race with Clinton, that has put Clinton in a bad light with that crowd, but people also learn to not be such (hate to say it) whiny bitches when they lose. You come around and support the candidate that is closer to your optimal views, that is part of being an adult (making sound decisions and accepting you don't get the picture perfect thing every time in life). Kids learn that when get to college and into their 20s and realize life doesn't give two shits about them and is waiting to slap them around. That's where idealism meets reality.

You say that like Clinton appeals more to Bernie voters than Trump does. In reality, Trump and Bernie both appeal to the same working-class demographic. Just look at their views on free trade. Trump's America First policy is probably pretty appealing to those people who were screwed over by big businesses and Wall Street, while Hillary is literally the candidate of Wall Street.

I do think while Bernie did not win this time, a person from the Sanders "movement" will eventually win in the future. Trump ... I'm more inclined to believe is a one off. 

Say what you want about him, and I have been as critical of him as anyone on this board, but he does have an interesting personality, a cult-ish egocentric show biz appeal that won't be easy to replicate IMO. 

This is certainly not a one-off. The more egregious the hypocricy and injustices are, the more people will be drawn to the Trump movement. Sure, Trump isn't the best candidate, but he's the first to explicitly appeal to nationalism in a long time.

And the USA has always been a country of immigrants, it is not some ethno-centric society. Big portions of the US were built right over top of Mexico, there were hundreds of thousands of black slaves, Asian laborers, and Italian, Irish, and other communities lived in their own little "enclaves" seperated from each other early on too. It's always been a melting pot of different types of people. 

 

I've already argued about this:

StarDoor said:

And here we see the greatest myth (i.e. lie) ever concocted in American history.

The Statue of Liberty was a French-gifted statue that went up in 1886, over a hundred years after the country was born. The fact that ((Emma Lazarus)) wrote a poem about immigrants (whom she hilariously called refuse, a.k.a. garbage) for the pedestal means nothing about the origin of the United States.

The United States was founded by English people. It was built on English culture, uses the English language, and has an English form of government. It is not a nation of “open borders” and “multiple cultures.” It’s an English nation that managed to assimilate other Europeans into one culture. And for the tens of millions who came in the later 19th and early 20th century, assimilation only happened after legal immigration was curbed in 1924.

“Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a colony of aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them?” -Benjamin Franklin

Immigration policy was explicitly white for nearly two centuries. It only changed in 1965 against the will of the people.

In the 21st century people are simply going to have to learn to live with people of different ethnicities. 

Yes in the past people lived in isolated locations more or less with similar ethnicities, but they also didn't have airplanes, ships, the global stock market, internet, global pop culture, electricity, or even working toilets either. Obviously humanity is going to evolve in a different way from here on out, our technology (and economy) has simply changed that. 

If we had this level of technology in the 15th century for example, the world would also look very different than the arbitrary way it settled into. We know from human history, that there are constant human migrations, and this was just people (basically) walking on foot through huge continents. 

Beyond that, the Americas are not the ethnic home of "white people" anyway, so if we're going to do the whole "go back to where your ethnicity originated from" then go back to Europe I guess? 

No "race" has any right to dominion over 60% of the land mass and 80%+ of the world's resources anyway. If I saw an alien planet and that was their set up I would call bullshit on that too, because it's objectively just wrong. If people want to live on this planet, they need to learn to fucking share, it's a common thing that everyone is taught from age 2 onwards, but it doesn't sink in for a lot of people it seems. 

One the big reasons why America is even still a global powerhouse is because they DO suck up a lot of talented PhDs, scientists, doctors, etc. from China and India. The "average" American, I hate to say it is fucking lazy (8 minute Abs? Why? Because you can't spend even 10 minutes on your physical fitness in a 24 hour day?) and there is an obsession with money/fame instead of knowledge/education, American test scores are mediocre considering American students have benefits and facilities people in other countries couldn't even dream of. 



Soundwave said:

In the 21st century people are simply going to have to learn to live with people of different ethnicities. 

Yes in the past people lived in isolated locations more or less with similar ethnicities, but they also didn't have airplanes, ships, the global stock market, internet, global pop culture, electricity, or even working toilets either. Obviously humanity is going to evolve in a different way from here on out, our technology (and economy) has simply changed that. 

If we had this level of technology in the 15th century for example, the world would also look very different than the arbitrary way it settled into. 

Beyond that, the Americas are not the ethnic home of "white people" anyway, so if we're going to do the whole "go back to where your ethnicity originated from" then go back to Europe I guess? 

No "race" has any right to dominion over 60% of the land mass and 80%+ of the world's resources. Not anymore. If people want to live on this planet, they need to learn to fucking share, it's a common thing that everyone is taught from age 2 onwards, but it doesn't sink in for a lot of people it seems. 

Okay, but, once again, why are white people in white countries the only ones that have to be completely displaced? Africa is for Africans, Asia is for Asians, but Europe and North America are for everyone?

This isn't an argument for isolation, it's an argument for just being allowed to exist. If I replaced the 127 million people in Japan with 127 million Nigerians, would that still be Japan? No, of course it wouldn't, it would be another Nigeria. Technology doesn't mean that the whole world has to become a generic, soulless amalgam with no distinct identities.

Instead of 60% of the world's landmass, you're advocating for 0%. The institutions of the United States (it's infrastructure, economy, government, civil society, etc.) were almost entirely built by white people, but even discounting that, Europe is being invaded just like the United States, so it's not like "going back" is even feasible from that perspective.

"People need to fucking share, but only if they're white."

Oh boy, more edits.

One the big reasons why America is even still a global powerhouse is because they DO suck up a lot of talented PhDs, scientists, doctors, etc. from China and India. The "average" American, I hate to say it is fucking lazy (8 minute Abs? Why? Because you can't spend even 10 minutes on your physical fitness in a 24 hour day?) and there is an obsession with money/fame instead of knowledge/education, American test scores are mediocre considering American students have benefits and facilities people in other countries couldn't even dream of. 

Wait a second, what? Didn't I already refute this absurdity like a month ago?

StarDoor said:

First of all, no, America isn't a stupid country. American whites perform on the same level as Germany, the Netherlands, and Switzerland. The reason the US gets low average scores is because hispanics and blacks pull down the average, and Asians are too small of a group to pull the average up much.

You only justified immigration for highly-educated people from India and China. What about all the other people we let in who don't have any education and will likely end up on welfare or in jail?

American whites are as smart as European whites. What a shocker. We did just fine in science and technology before we opened immigration up to the third world. Space program, anyone?



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StarDoor said:
Soundwave said:

In the 21st century people are simply going to have to learn to live with people of different ethnicities. 

Yes in the past people lived in isolated locations more or less with similar ethnicities, but they also didn't have airplanes, ships, the global stock market, internet, global pop culture, electricity, or even working toilets either. Obviously humanity is going to evolve in a different way from here on out, our technology (and economy) has simply changed that. 

If we had this level of technology in the 15th century for example, the world would also look very different than the arbitrary way it settled into. 

Beyond that, the Americas are not the ethnic home of "white people" anyway, so if we're going to do the whole "go back to where your ethnicity originated from" then go back to Europe I guess? 

No "race" has any right to dominion over 60% of the land mass and 80%+ of the world's resources. Not anymore. If people want to live on this planet, they need to learn to fucking share, it's a common thing that everyone is taught from age 2 onwards, but it doesn't sink in for a lot of people it seems. 

Okay, but, once again, why are white people in white countries the only ones that have to be completely displaced? Africa is for Africans, Asia is for Asians, but Europe and North America are for everyone?

This isn't an argument for isolation, it's an argument for just being allowed to exist. If I replaced the 127 million people in Japan with 127 million Nigerians, would that still be Japan? No, of course it wouldn't, it would be another Nigeria. Technology doesn't mean that the whole world has to become a generic, soulless amalgam with no distinct identities.

Instead of 60% of the world's landmass, you're advocating for 0%. The institutions of the United States (it's infrastructure, economy, government, civil society, etc.) were almost entirely built by white people, but even discounting that, Europe is being invaded just like the United States, so it's not like "going back" is even feasible from that perspective.

"People need to fucking share, but only if they're white."

North America isn't historically the home of "white" people, so sure I don't see why that can't be open season for everyone. 

Even cultures like Japan I think are going to have to accept more immigration unless they want to be a dying country of old farts. 

And yes the person with the most toys, generally has to share the "most". 

Why don't we just make everything a merit based society? If you're a lazy or dumb fuck, you get jack all. You want something in life? Take it. Work for it. No birth right just because you happen to be born somewhere. 

Technology changes the world eventually. This is likely the last century that humanity will even be solely on even just *this* rinky dink little planet. What are we going to do when we are out there ... bitch and complain about different skin tones? No, princesses, you better suck that shit up and learn to live with each other because outer space is going to want to ass fuck all of you 15 different ways to the grave. Lets hope our great grandchildren are smarter than us and are up for that challenge. 



Soundwave said:

North America isn't historically the home of "white" people, so sure I don't see why that can't be open season for everyone. 

Even cultures like Japan I think are going to have to accept more immigration unless they want to be a dying country of old farts. 

And yes the person with the most toys, generally has to share the "most". 

Why don't we just make everything a merit based society? If you're a lazy or dumb fuck, you get jack all. You want something in life? Take it. Work for it. No birth right just because you happen to be born somewhere. 

Okay, that sounds good to me. Let's get rid of affirmative action and anti-discrimination laws, then.

But wait, because we have the most toys, we have to share the most? Even though we got our toys through merit? In fact, we built those toys ourselves? Huh.

And that's fine if you think Japan should let in more immigrants, but most Japanese people disagree. I believe that people have the right of self-determination, so it's their business alone. Unfortunately, multiculturalism has been imposed on whites from above, and I'm not sure how you can think that's ethical.



Wiibaron said:
Because Trump is an actual outsider to politics and DC and even the Republican Party he would be the perfect once-in-a-lifetime chance for real beneficial change to happen in Washington. He is a self-made man who owes nobody no favor and needs no more power or celebrity. He will be taking a giant pay cut to be president, and would 'go away' after his term is over. He doesn't know the 'system' of DC, but advisors can easily show the way to him. Good and Bad there. However he has a way to be too "NY" attitude to me to really like him. I hate her enough to dislike him less, just like most voters, either affiliation, this go-round. It won't be boring for 4 years with him as Pres for sure, with the media hating on him so much...could be fun! And we really do need a 'wall' and someone to make America a priority over other people for a change. We got problems that need attention right now.

If you think Obama got nothing done then wait and see what happens if Trump is elected. In the end government and politics is NOT a popularity contest and you have to get agreement and cooperation from the rest of the house. I can't see Trump being able to achieve that and will likely be even less effective than Obama if he makes it in. The reality is if you want real change you need to get elected a raft of like minded people to work within the system not an outsider and sadly most western government systems are designed to pevent that. We have the same problem in Australia we 2 major parties and two minor ones and they are all turds with slightly different stinks.



StarDoor said:
Soundwave said:

North America isn't historically the home of "white" people, so sure I don't see why that can't be open season for everyone. 

Even cultures like Japan I think are going to have to accept more immigration unless they want to be a dying country of old farts. 

And yes the person with the most toys, generally has to share the "most". 

Why don't we just make everything a merit based society? If you're a lazy or dumb fuck, you get jack all. You want something in life? Take it. Work for it. No birth right just because you happen to be born somewhere. 

Okay, that sounds good to me. Let's get rid of affirmative action and anti-discrimination laws, then.

But wait, because we have the most toys, we have to share the most? Even though we got our toys through merit? In fact, we built those toys ourselves? Huh.

And that's fine if you think Japan should let in more immigrants, but most Japanese people disagree. I believe that people have the right of self-determination, so it's their business alone. Unfortunately, multiculturalism has been imposed on whites from above, and I'm not sure how you can think that's ethical.

No one alive built any of their toys. So they have no entitlement to them as far as I'm concerned. You should earn the toys you are given, they should not be gifted to you. 

North America as far as I'm concerned is fine with multiculutralism. If you life sucks in North America ... it's not because of immigration or anything ... it's generally because you are either too stupid or too lazy (most likely lazy) to get ahead in this world and you do not realize you are in a competetive environment.

And that is your own damn fault, not because Apu living two doors down likes butter chicken curry instead of being Marty who likes steak and potatoes. 

If you want something in life, take it, stop thinking a politician is going to do it for you, and generally for Americans, turn off the goddamn Netflix for an hour or two. It will still be there. And turn off the fucking video games too. I realize that is an oxymoron on this board, but it's true. My kids will get an earful if they think they are lounging around the house playing video games and stuffing their face with Big Macs all day. They will get play for a very set amount of time and that's it. 



Soundwave said:

No one alive built any of their toys. So they have no entitlement to them as far as I'm concerned. You should earn the toys you are given, they should not be gifted to you. 

North America as far as I'm concerned is fine with multiculutralism. If you life sucks in North America ... it's not because of immigration or anything ... it's generally because you are either too stupid or too lazy (most likely lazy) to get ahead in this world and you do not realize you are in a competetive environment.

And that is your own damn fault, not because Apu living two doors down likes butter chicken curry instead of being Marty who likes steak and potatoes. 

If you want something in life, take it, stop thinking a politician is going to do it for you, and generally for Americans, turn off the goddamn Netflix for an hour or two. It will still be there. And turn off the fucking video games too. I realize that is an oxymoron on this board, but it's true. My kids will get an earful if they think they are lounging around the house playing video games and stuffing their face with Big Macs all day. 

I mean, if you truly feel that way, that's great, but a majority of people would despise a pure meritocracy, since whites and east Asians would dominate.

Also, not sure if you're addressing me with the whole "life sucks," "lazy," etc, but I'm 18 and currently attending university. I'm not blaming anything on multiculturalism, other than the fact that it makes for societies that function far worse than homogeneous ones.