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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Pro Wrasslin' Thread (WWE, WWF, WCW, TNA, ROH, NWA, NJPW, etc)

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What match are you excited for at WWE Payback 2017?

Neville vs. Austin Aries ... 1 5.88%
 
Randy Orton vs. Bray Wyat... 3 17.65%
 
The Hardy Boyz vs. Cesaro... 3 17.65%
 
Kevin Owens vs. Chris Jer... 4 23.53%
 
Bayley vs. Alexa Bliss (Raw Women's Title) 3 17.65%
 
Seth Rollins vs. Samoa Joe 1 5.88%
 
Roman Reigns vs. Braun Strowman 2 11.76%
 
Total:17
BasilZero said:
Jumpin said:

I just skipped the men’s Rumble match. This is the first WWE event I’ve watched since last Royal Rumble. And since they’ve done things like the whole Brock thing I basically asked my wife “look up the results and only tell me them if it’s Brock Lesnar or Randy Orton winningâ€Â - it’s not that I dislike Lesnar, but I don’t have any interest in another Lesnar/Reigns match, like the one they set up earlier with Heyman betraying Lesnar. Orton, I know he has a lot of fans, I just haven’t found any match he’s been in for about 16 years to be interesting. “Oh! But he tells a story in the ring!â€Â - sure, insofar that his matches have a beginning, middle, and end with culmination points… is that supposed to impress me? Just about every wrestler I’ve ever seen does that. Telling a great story is something Orton doesn’t do… Bret Hart vs Michaels Iron Man Match was a great story, Bret Hart vs Austin WM13 was a great story, Ciampa vs Gargano was a great story with callbacks, like the sit down, to their earlier DIY team era. Rock vs Austin at Wrestlemania 17 was a great story. Orton’s best story is that match he had with Foley, which probably doesn’t even enter Foley’s top 40. I’m sure he’s a nice guy, so I feel kind of bad about this, but FUCK Orton, I’m glad he was gone in two minutes even if I didn’t suffer to watch it :D

Royal Rumble often had that great match back in the day, the match that was a contender for best match of the year. In 1998 we got to see Shawn Michaels shatter his back just months after the Montreal screw job. In 1999 a fantastic I Quit match between Mankind and The Rock (the one where Rock used a fake recording) - substantially better than Foley vs Orton, but Foley topped that one at the 2000 RR event
with perhaps the greatest Street Fight in WWE history against Triple H as Cactus Jack, his retirement match - IMO, this one was better than his match against Undertaker HIAC, but not as insane (that HIAC for the first time was like watching Cloverfoeld for the first time). In 2001, Benoit vs Jericho in the ladder match where Jericho bent Benoit’s back over the top of the ladder. In 2003, Benoit vs Angle, I’ll always remember this one because it was the first time I ever recall seeing a full rotation German in WWE. And the Royal Rumble, to this day is usually very interesting. I like the women’s match better than the men’s, usually.

This year’s I LOVED the last few moments of the women’s match. I was disappointed to see Ivory go down so quickly, and to have her feel so scripted with her RTC gimmick on the mic - when she was by far the best in the women’s division in that capacity in her time. I understand why she didn’t do anything in the ring given she’s in her 60s, but I think they could have done her better. Wouldn’t it have been great if she commented on how WWE was finally cleaned up in the way RTC wanted? That would have been closer to the truth.
My favourite moments:
My three biggest highlights were Lita, Rousy, and one that made me legitimately angry for a half a second… yeah, I literally marked (I’ll get to that later).
First, Lita, blew the roof off! And she went out there and has as great of a showing as she’s ever had. She was moving faster and more fluid than she did most of her career in WWE (I’m guessing she worked injured a lot). She had passion, energy, she looked strong, I loved every moment of it! Oh yeah, Shotzi Blackheart, I’m not familiar with her as I stopped watching NXT before she became a thing, but damn! Her and Lita had sparks for the few moments they engaged.
Second, Rousey, holy fuck! I was happy to see her back, and winning. A lot of people hate her, but she never failed to entertain me. The mic’s not her strong point, I hope they keep her away from it except to say “fuck you!â€Â to the crowd. I want her to be an angry heel that pisses off the crowd by destroying their favourites, twisting their arms. I’m going to be watching WWE again, whatever show she’s on. That said, I hated how they booked her toward the end of the match, laying on the ground like a wounded child - Rousey should have beat the fuck out of everyone and not done any overselling. It should have been about survival for everyone else at the end until Rousey’s inevitable victory. I want to see the Rousey that put Steph’s arm in a cast, the Rousey that beat the shit out of Correia. And I don’t want a smiley Rousey, I want her to do what Baszler did in NXT, a cruel heartless bitch.
Before I get to my last point, the women’s Royal Rumble showed just how much thinner the women’s division has become in the last year or two. So many of them were guest stars (I’m assuming), it felt like half. It kind of made it feel like a bit of a gimmick battle royale.
Now the third! First, I love the Riott Squad. Early in their career, there was this scene where they were just walking through the backstage area and casually trashing the place, years ago now, but it was brilliant. They had this genuine bond, and it transcends the labels of companies because they’re all friends in real life. That said, when I saw the Bellas put out Sarah Logan and Liv Morgan, I had a legitimate mark-out moment where I felt extreme rage! Then smiled as I realized the WWE bookers actually got me on that one :)
So I stayed in mark-mode (smark mode, I guess) a little longer for when Rousey beat the shit out of the Bellas :D

First thing Rousey should do is play into the Internet narrative that the crowd turning on her annoyed her (it likely didn’t), and say “I’m done with your shit! Yeah you fuckers cheered for me, but I’m not buying it! I’d make fun if you for being unemployed white trash if you weren’t all 15 and under or 75 and older. Or maybe you just look that way because of the inbreeding… well, maybe not, this isn’t AEW and she’s not MJF :D

Next, Lashley vs Lesnar was great until the end. I normally hate these big man vs big man matches, because they’re slow and boring with, but this one was really good! A lot better than Lesnar vs Roman will be. But, they must have had that idiot booker who had Rousey lay down selling for 3 minutes, because Lashley did the same fucking thing! Stop doing this shit! I wish wrestlers had more say in what they do, because you know Lesnar and Lashley would have had a better idea than that to fill the time gap. They fucked up the ending, plain and simple. Unfortunately, they clearly engineered a stupid Reigns vs Lesnar feud when a Lesnar vs Lashley Street Fight at Wrestlemania or I Quit match would have been much more fun.

I missed a bunch of Becky vs Piper Nevin (doudrop? WTF?). Did she come up with that one on her own? Someone should have said something. The match had some good spots, can’t comment much further.

Did anything else happen? I missed Beth Phoenix and Edge vs Miz and Maryse (which I might watch later), and Reigns vs whoever (that I’ll only watch if it’s a squash match with power bombs or something).

The Women's RR definitely set up potential WM level match ups like with the Bellas and Logan/Morgan, Lita and Charlotte, etc.

Sadly probably wont see any of them coming true lol

Piper being renamed to Doudrop was probably a Vince thing and is likely the reason why she's still employed considering the person she was teamed up originally with is no longer with the company.

I liked the Edge/Beth VS Miz/Maryse match to be honest. I wanted Miz/Maryse to win but of course they booked the faces to win.

The Reigns VS Rollins match was pretty decent. The entrance Rollins pulled was troll worthy lol. I like Rollins new persona.

I think with a lot of the things like Doudrop, Vince is kind of testing people. He doesn't like to push people to levels like Roman Reigns until he's sure they're going to be lifers like Cena or Reigns. So, I think that's what happens a lot with guys like Keith Lee, or Karrion Cross, where they debut, are given some things to weigh them down, and they see if they're going to take it and do their best or complain and leave. I'm not saying that I agree with the practice, but I think that's the method in the madness.

I think most of the show actually played off of long term storytelling. Rollins vs Reigns definitely. Lashley vs Lesnar was about how they've sort of parallelled eachother. The women's rumble had tons of moments. Sonya attacking Cameron, Molly and Nikki (sort of), Bellas getting eliminating Rousey, Summer going directly after Natalya, and even Michelle McCool and Mickie James getting into it. A lot of nostalgia really. The men's had not quite as much but it was there. Finishing with Drew and Lesnar after Drew eliminating him last year for instance. And the Edge Maryse feud had a pretty good feud. So, having an actual narrative definitely isn't the problem to me. I think they've been doing good in that regard lately. The problem is that the payoff doesn't always live up to the story. See: Reigns vs Rollins.



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I have evolved. I watched all of the Roman/Seth match and....yeah that was an interesting take on the end. I don't LIKE screwey finishes but this is one bit of shenanigans I think serves the narrative well enough. Could be very interesting to see if there's a follow-up. Commentators still suck so remarkably badly though.

As for the women's Rumble? I actually liked it. I don't like that Sasha got booted early (she's way too good to always be losing or failing or getting ejected too soon), but the rest of the rumble was shockingly full of great moments. I also don't like that Rhea didn't win, as I'm still riding that high of her basically winning survivor Series and WarGames on her own in the same weekend. I have no idea how they didn't capitalize on that momentum, but here we are. That said, she's 25 and she WILL win a rumble or two in her time. Like I said, she already dominated a Survivor Series elimination match and a WarGames Match basically without teammates, so it's only a matter of time. Rousey didn't need the win but it makes sense and like I said I love watching that woman work, she is pretty great,,,

,,,but you know who isn't great? Whoever the switcher is behind the scenes. The guy who flips between cameras. I have NEVER seen wrestling camera work so jittery and bad. Like, at one point, in the middle of a move someone was doing, instead of lingering just a second longer to see the move, they cut away to a closeup of someone's ass, then cut to another camera after the move was over. One mistake is one mistake, but the whole damn show was full of snappy cuts that kept cutting away from the action. It's so bad. Like, in a tightly cut and edited movie you can get away with that many cuts. in a live setting it's jarring and far too unpredictable to work. It looked bad, it ruined the effect and whoever was in charge of that (I think Kevin Dunn? I gotta google that) needs to be fired immediately.

I literally did a better job on switcher in college in 2009 when we hosted an awards show. and that was me filling in for some other guy on the team last minute when I was working in a different department for the entire duration of the semester's build. I had one week to learn the switcher and get chemistry with the director, and I still did a better job than this guy who is operating a multimillion dollar production. Hire me, WWE, I'll do a better job.

Also, stop cutting to the crowd for a split second in between cuts. Nobody cares. Especially not when the proper choice is to get a look at the wrestler coming out. I only think they managed to get a single entrance beyond the original two. It's just bad direction. And it's not even the worst WWE does. The camera movements and zooms are almost always overblown to give that dynamic look, which does less to engage the viewer and more to make it painfully clear that this is scripted and...it's the sort of thing that Barney the Dinosaur would do as a joke to keep the attention of toddlers, not something you'd expect to see on a show about people beating each other up to wear fancy belts.



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just watched the Lesnar/Lashley match and...oh look, it's the same as every other lesnar match! 10 moves total between them!

German Suplex, german suplex, German Suplex x3, punches and kicks, tackle through the barricade, Spear, Spear, attempted F5 for the win....only to shenanigans one's way out of a satisfying conclusion. 12 moves if you count Reigns spearing and hitting him with a belt.

Every. Fucking. Lesnar. Match.

How does anyone like this? I get that wrestlers have their signatures, I get that they have their style, and some moron out there's like 'but Dolph Ziggler just does a million super kicks per match and Kenny Omega just does V-triggers all the damn time" as if that negated the rest of the matches they're in. Like, a V-trigger is just a move, Kenny Omega has a huge arsenal. Kenny Omega can keep you invested for an hour or more. People bag on John Cena for the 5 moves of doom, but at least he could make a match interesting with mixing it up. Brock's matches are so short because he only does like 5 moves, but for real. German suplex, Shoulder tackle, Kimura Clutch, and the F5. 4 moves. 5 if you could strikes/punches/kicks.

The worst part? I know he knows how to wrestle. His ongoing feud with Kurt angle in 2003 remains one of the best feuds I think I've ever seen. Technically sound, amazingly well booked, engaging, and they even had an ironman match! So why the hell is Brock boring as fuck now? Oh, right, because he CAN be. HE went off, legitimately became one of the baddest of the most badass motherfuckers on the planet, and since he knows he doesn't have to try anymore, he just doesn't. He has potential, he just genuinely doesn't care. and if he does, then this is a really shitty meta-character. Either way, booooooo to Brock. I stop watching any time he's on.

Remember when he came in to squash Kofi in like 2 minutes after Kofi scratched and clawed his way to the top and beat Daniel Bryan? Remember when he squashed Finn Balor in like 8 minutes? Remember when he won Money in the Bank by....not announcing himself for the match and just showing up at the end after everyone else did all the work to win in like a minute? Yeah, if this was reality this would be engaging. a dude skirting his duties to cheat the system. In a scripted story, this is like playing a videogame, doing all the work, levelling up all your characters, and having an engaging rivalry only to have some other dude come in at the last minute and completely turn things around.

You know how in Final Fantasy IX, you spend the whole game fighting Kuja, then literally ot of nowhere once you beat the game Necron shows up to...."it was me all along" despite you having no interest in him, no beef with him, and no history with him? Brock Lesnar is the Necron of WWE. he doesn't do ANY of the work but gets ALL of the credit. He's not fun to watch, his storylines are bland and generic, he's not interested in building up others, he has no weaknesses, he's just a generic 'he's big and strong' guy. that sort of shit is fine when it's real, but if people wanted real they'd watch UFC. People watch Pro Wrestling BECAUSE it's scripted. and in scripted shows you gotta pay off the build up more often. Or, at the very least, make the journey more engaging instead of the same old repetitive nonsense with the same matches done over and over again.



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I confess I didn't watch most of the Edge and Beth Phoenix vs Miz and Maryse match. Watched the intros, Maryse ditched, Beth Phoenix chased....and I gave up at that point. Just more stupid-assed shenanigans throughout. Same bullshit nonsense crap you get in a throwaway match on Raw. Big old no thanks from me, boss.

the ending with the double spear and double glam slam was pretty cool, though. I do love Edge and Beth, they are both pretty damn awesome overall. Love seeing them back. Hopefully they can move onto something worthwhile.

But now that all I have left is the men's rumble itself...like, there was 20 something minutes of Ads in between the last two matches. Like, if people PAY for this, why are they doing video packages and marketing for MORE than half the show? I get like 'sponsored by Snickers' in the corner during a replay and I do get the packages showing the storyline up to this point, but like...it's WAY too much. Lemme check something here.

The matches on their own totaled 160 minutes. The entire event was 240 minutes. That means literally one third of the entire runtime of the show was nothing but ads and video packages. And keep in mind, Royal Rumble has one of the best match to total ratios due to the sheer length of the Rumble matches themselves. Other shows are closer to 50/50.



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BasilZero said:

Yeah the promos are too long but they did that probably so they can have shorter duration for the matches especially both of the RR matches.

I KINDA get that...but then isn't that what the kickoff is for? I saw all these promo packages already. 

As for the men's rumble...it's not TERRIBLE. I'm about halfway through and I don't think it's bad or anything. the action is pretty good, lots of action and character beats, Omos is terrible but at least he's got personality to make up for it. A lot of the same issues that plagued the woman's rumble are present here, though. Still a lot of cutting away JUST as a move is about to happen. Like, when Boogs goes to toss Gable over, it's clearly building up to it, we know it's happening, I assume the producers in the truck know it, too...yet like, a second before it happens they cut to some random beatdown camera happening elsewhere in the rumble. cutting immediately back once the elimination concluded. 

At some point I think they're doing it on purpose. No way a professional would allow this shit to happen. 



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AS for the rest of the match. Yeah, I've ranted about how much I hate Brock and how much he ruined the rumble, but pretty much everything up to that point was fine. Not terrible. That Kofi spot looked painful as hell, though. and I Really don't like how little respect Big E and Kevin Owens got.

Oh, and Bad Bunny...whoever the fuck that is...is knocking it outta the park! Seriously! He and Johnny Knoxville get it. They made for some fun spots, seriously. I just wish they didn't have to go ruining it with Brock. Oh, and Shane McMahon has no place here. He looks terrible, and has for the last 5-7 years. He needs to let go. 



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Runa216 said:

AS for the rest of the match. Yeah, I've ranted about how much I hate Brock and how much he ruined the rumble, but pretty much everything up to that point was fine. Not terrible. That Kofi spot looked painful as hell, though. and I Really don't like how little respect Big E and Kevin Owens got.

Oh, and Bad Bunny...whoever the fuck that is...is knocking it outta the park! Seriously! He and Johnny Knoxville get it. They made for some fun spots, seriously. I just wish they didn't have to go ruining it with Brock. Oh, and Shane McMahon has no place here. He looks terrible, and has for the last 5-7 years. He needs to let go. 

Shane McMahon had one fucking good match with one of the best workers of all time, and 20 years later at 50 years old, they're trying to portray him as a credible competitor. -_-



JWeinCom said:
Runa216 said:

AS for the rest of the match. Yeah, I've ranted about how much I hate Brock and how much he ruined the rumble, but pretty much everything up to that point was fine. Not terrible. That Kofi spot looked painful as hell, though. and I Really don't like how little respect Big E and Kevin Owens got.

Oh, and Bad Bunny...whoever the fuck that is...is knocking it outta the park! Seriously! He and Johnny Knoxville get it. They made for some fun spots, seriously. I just wish they didn't have to go ruining it with Brock. Oh, and Shane McMahon has no place here. He looks terrible, and has for the last 5-7 years. He needs to let go. 

Shane McMahon had one fucking good match with one of the best workers of all time, and 20 years later at 50 years old, they're trying to portray him as a credible competitor. -_-

All I gotta say about Shane McMahon is....if those punches of his are hitting then Muhammad Ali (Wow, I spelled it right on first attempt without googling it!) is guilty of assault on every crowd member that ever attended his bouts. 



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BasilZero said:

The Women's RR definitely set up potential WM level match ups like with the Bellas and Logan/Morgan, Lita and Charlotte, etc.

Sadly probably wont see any of them coming true lol

Piper being renamed to Doudrop was probably a Vince thing and is likely the reason why she's still employed considering the person she was teamed up originally with is no longer with the company.

I liked the Edge/Beth VS Miz/Maryse match to be honest. I wanted Miz/Maryse to win but of course they booked the faces to win.

The Reigns VS Rollins match was pretty decent. The entrance Rollins pulled was troll worthy lol. I like Rollins new persona.

Yeah, I got the sense that the Sarah Logan would be back for the one moment. She was only in the match for about 20-30 seconds. I was a big fan of Liv Morgan, I'd watch the show. I'm paying attention at least.

 
Lita vs Charlotte I guess is happening. Lita's in great ring shape, so it should be a good match.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

BasilZero said:
Jumpin said:

Yeah, I got the sense that the Sarah Logan would be back for the one moment. She was only in the match for about 20-30 seconds. I was a big fan of Liv Morgan, I'd watch the show. I'm paying attention at least.

 
Lita vs Charlotte I guess is happening. Lita's in great ring shape, so it should be a good match.

Yeah no joke, she looks way better now than when she was last active.

Yeah, way faster and more alert. I’m thinking she was suffering from injuries for most of her career. It’s just a guess, I don’t actually know the situation.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.