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Forums - Gaming - MS - No generations 'eases the disruptive nature of moving to a new platform' - Will market Xbox One S aggressively

Intrinsic said:
Darc Requiem said:

We shall see. I don't agree but I certainly can be wrong about this business model. That said, as far optimization goes you are fooling yourself. Devs have shown optimization issues with the existing console business model. Giving them multiple targets is just going to make the issue worse. 

 

Edit: Don't expect 60fps either. It's the first thing that gets sacrificed by developers.

This optimization thing is overstated and misunderstood when it comes to consoles. With this model for consoles, devs aren't making games for the PS3/360 and then porting it over to the PS4/XB1 or vice versa. It's the same engine running on hardware that  can run the exact same code. Devs don't have to go and completely rewrite their code to go from the PS4 to the Neo. They give you the swme game, but just allow the more powerful console to utilize assets or better iterations of their already existing code. Rez bump here, better shadow rez there, better AA here....etc. 

Look at it this way. Devs make a game on PC and it's dialed up to 10. for consoles they port it over and bring it down to 4. With the Neo and scorpio they bring it down to 7. Same code. 

TheLastStarFighter said:
It's interesting. In some ways I like it, but in another way I think it kills innovation. There was a time when a new console not only introduced better hardware and resolutions, but new ways to play. Totally new interfaces. Shifts from sprites to polygons. Dramatic shifts in games. I enjoy those tremendously.

It is really on Nintendo now as the only one who could provide a dramatic shift. If they did - if they offered something totally new on a hardware level - this could kill MS's plans of "no generations." But Nintendo would have to offer something that gamers would both enjoy and come to demand as a new standard.

I don't think it will kill innovation. especially if going by your example. If ways to play is the kinda innovation you are talking about, then I'm sorry to tell you we have been playing the same way since the 90s. I think people have to accept that we don't have to reinvent the wheel every single time. If it's not broke don't fix it. I would rather see innovation in AI, physics, level design and character progression than in new control systems anyday. 

Besides, we are getting VR now. And I think you are putting too much faith in Nintendo. It's not just about having new ways to play. Its about having meaningful ways to play. there is a reason dual stick controllers, keyboard and mouse have been around for as long as they have. They just make things easy to do. Nintendo did different with motion controls. but a lot of their games suffered for it. I strongly doubt anyone would tell you that twilight princess was the best Zelda they played. or that people would be as excited if they were told that BotW is motion control based.

RolStoppable said:
Good luck with that, Microsoft. You can say that there will be no generations all you want, but if consumers don't buy into that idea, it's not going to work like you want. And why should consumers buy into the idea of no generations when the Scorpio is a next generation Xbox.

I've said it in another thread, if generations are supposed to go away, then the current Xbox One would have to have infinite and unlimited forward compatiblity. Nobody in their right mind would believe that that is going to happen, and Microsoft certainly is not going to allow such FC either. After all, they want to sell their next generation Xbox and show why it's not only better than the current Xbox One, but also better than whatever Sony has in store.

infinite compatibility isn't how generations go away though. Look at it this way...

The PS4 was released in 2013 at $399. By 2019 it could very well be $99, maybe even come without a disc drive or something. At that point the Neo will probably be $200-$250.

The pricing is key. By that time, the best selling PS4 wouldn't be the $99 version even tho it still plays all PS4 games. It will probably be the $250 Neo which plays all PS4 games and plays all PS5 games decently. The og PS4 will still be able to play PS5 games but you will literally be getting a $99 expericne. 

it's called phasing out hardware. if you had a PS4 from 2013 to 2019, at that time you could choose to get a Neo for $200/$250 and be good for the next 3-6 yrs, or you could choose to buy the PS5 for $400-$500 and be good for the next 6-9yrs. 

The luxury this model affords platform holders is that they can take more risks with hardware. They can make a $600 all powerful box knowing that they really only need the $250 box to drive sales while they can slowly get their price down. And most importantly, there will be a version of the console available to meet every price bracket and type of console gamer. 

Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly. Because it seems that you are basically agreeing that console games won't be pushing the hardware. It will be like PC. 



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AsGryffynn said:
LurkerJ said:
No need to tell PC gamers, we knew the advantage and believed in it long ago. I think it's the right direction for the industry as a whole.

No shame learning from the best. 

#PCGamingMasterRace

 




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Darc Requiem said:

A lack of generations prevents a clean break from the previous iteration of hardware. The strength of consoles had always been a unified platform that developers could maximize. In addition, it made it clear to consumers when software was compatible with a platform.

I don't see this change as a good thing. New hardware is going to be limited by software being required to run on older hardware. Which defeats the purpose of having improved hardware. Consoles are becoming too much like PCs and forgetting what made the console model a success.

I think this would have been more relevant back when console cycles were 5 years with a clean cut off and when the average game took 2years to develop versus 4. PS3/360 had 8-9 years of support respectively. Lack of generations means there's less stagnation overall but not the same sudden jumps we're use to seeing, but as I mentioned above those sudden jumps aren't so sudden anymore and they take longer to arrive. Assuming Neo gets 7 years of support, that'd be 10years since the PS4 was launched and only a year or 2 longer to jump to an entirely new generation of hardware (PS5)  being the main platform of development compared to what we saw last gen. All the while developers and consumers don't have to be confided with hardware from 2013 for those years like we did in the past.

Convoluted statement but I hope that it make sense.



So the wiiU was a revolution because you can use Wii and even Gamecube controllers on it and it is bc with Wii?
If their Idea of generationless gaming is just bc, then that's neither particularily revolutionary nor new.

What would be, is if all the games released on the newer systems remained playable on older systems for two or three generations. That however would either halt progress or we'd enter a new age of paired down ports for diffrent hardware iterations.

I'm still not convinced MS and Sony can make this work. It negates too many of the advantages consoles have over pc, both for the consumer and for the developers.



Darc Requiem said:

Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly. Because it seems that you are basically agreeing that console games won't be pushing the hardware. It will be like PC. 

Pushing the hardware? I dont  agree with that mindset. 

lets be honest here. what does that really mean? Is this coming from all that PR bullshit talk of how this or that game is only using 60% of the hardware?

Or is this some sort of belief that with more powerful hardware we get better games?

Well.... no. More powerful hardware just means one thing. better looking games. and in some cases better running games. But in case most dont know, devs always focus on looks first before performance. Because unfortunately looks sell games and not if it's running at 30fps/60fps.

What I want are improvements in AI. csuse to me that can have the single biggest impact on how a game is experienced. don't give me a screen full of 30 dumb enemies. give me a screen with one super smart enemey. 

the hardware we have now can do all that and then some. the issue is the devs. 

And I'm sorry. PC always pushes gaming. not consoles. There are things happenning on PC today that we won't see on consoles (properly) for at least another 3-4yrs. So I really don't understand what you mean by pushing hardware. 



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What is he talking about? People love disruptions! In fact, on this very site there are users who wouldn't even consider a new console unless it has some disruptive effect.



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Intrinsic said:
Darc Requiem said:

Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly. Because it seems that you are basically agreeing that console games won't be pushing the hardware. It will be like PC. 

Pushing the hardware? I dont  agree with that mindset. 

lets be honest here. what does that really mean? Is this coming from all that PR bullshit talk of how this or that game is only using 60% of the hardware?

Or is this some sort of belief that with more powerful hardware we get better games?

Well.... no. More powerful hardware just means one thing. better looking games. and in some cases better running games. But in case most dont know, devs always focus on looks first before performance. Because unfortunately looks sell games and not if it's running at 30fps/60fps.

What I want are improvements in AI. csuse to me that can have the single biggest impact on how a game is experienced. don't give me a screen full of 30 dumb enemies. give me a screen with one super smart enemey. 

the hardware we have now can do all that and then some. the issue is the devs. 

And I'm sorry. PC always pushes gaming. not consoles. There are things happenning on PC today that we won't see on consoles (properly) for at least another 3-4yrs. So I really don't understand what you mean by pushing hardware. 

I'm not talking about PR bs. I'm talking about developers getting better performance out of comparable PC and Console hardware. My PC runs circles around the PS4 but differences between Dragon Age Inquisition, Tomb Raider 2013, SFV, MKXL, etc are marginal. Hypothetically, if my PC were a console these same games would perform better, they'd be developed around an I7, 24GB of RAM, and an 8GB GTX880M and a Solid State hard drive.



Swordmasterman said:
LurkerJ said:

I agree, but I think it will be less of an issue around 2023 when the Scorpio 2 will be the base model and the older hardware becomes an after thought for both, gamers and developers. 

Not that I care enough anyway, I am not going back to consoles or paying to play online. PC, and possibly the NX, all the way to the grave.

"No Generations" means unlimited support for the first model, not just backwards compatibility

I don't think that's what MS is aiming for. If you go to the App store now, you will find some applications that are only compatible with iPhone 5s and the newer models. Developers intentionally ignored iPhone, iPhone 3G, iPhone 4, iPhone 4s and iPhone 5 because they are too weak or run older versions of iOS. The users of older iPhones, at one point, will find themselves in need of an upgrade to take full advantage of the App store again.

Original PS4 owners may not have to upgrade now, but they will have to once the Neo 2 is released, because a lot of the developers will only make games for Neo 2 and Neo 1. You can't force developers to make games for the original PS4 in 2020, many will do so, but many will not. 



Kinda reaffirms there's no space for Nintendo in the traditional console market, if they're planning to market Scorpio heavily and with the specs they want, and then you have Sony with PS4 and PS4 Neo on the other side, just no room for another console. So Nintendo effectively going portable makes sense for all parties involved. 



Darc Requiem said:

A lack of generations prevents a clean break from the previous iteration of hardware. The strength of consoles had always been a unified platform that developers could maximize. In addition, it made it clear to consumers when software was compatible with a platform.

I don't see this change as a good thing. New hardware is going to be limited by software being required to run on older hardware. Which defeats the purpose of having improved hardware. Consoles are becoming too much like PCs and forgetting what made the console model a success.

This is just MS talking out their butt, really. Trying to make waves for "changing how we see consoles." But, Sony is the one who decides how the next gen starts, not MS. And trust me, if MS decides to stick around another gen, you can bet they'll release a XB2, and they sure as hell aren't going to demand devs to continue to support the Scorpio if they don't want to.

The max I see Sony doing that is different from their usual strategy is maybe having the PS5 also support the DS4.