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Forums - Gaming - Square Enix: PS4 version of Rise of the Tombraider is not canceled

Mr Puggsly on 05 July 2016
Kerotan said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I don't think giving it away raises its potential... more like raises the potential of people wanting the next game.

Hey, is RotTR damaged by the way? Do you keep typing that or just paste?

My argument on here is the ip is currently damaged.  The sooner you can admit that instead of trying to change the argument to something else the sooner we can move on.  

What IP is damaged? My memory is fuzzy. Was there any mention of it in the thread?

I think we could easily just move on now. No admiting required, we can just have different opinions.



Recently Completed: 
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Mr Puggsly on 05 July 2016
Aura7541 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Excellent question!

Those are all things many IPs do to hype future releases. They virtually give away the previous games to increase the fanbase.

We certainly wouldnt consider every GwG and PS+ title a damaged IP.

I was hoping you would provide ample examples because I see a lot of telling, but not a lot of showing.

The thing with GwG and PS+ is more nuanced than you're making it out to be. Take Rocket League as an example. It was offered for free on PS+ and the number of players grew a lot. However, how does this move pay off on the long run? Well, the game is relatively inexpensive so the initial hit won't be as big as, let's say, a kind of hit a AAA game will receive. In addition, it is a multiplayer game which provides it a lot of replayability and also has a bunch of DLC. Because of the former, it increases the likelihood of players purchasing DLC which in turn, leads to greater revenue. ROTR, on the other hand, is a costlier single player game that doesn't have as much replayability as Rocket League.

TL;DR - It largely depends on what type of game you're talking about.

If you talking about money now, you have to consider it got a money hat from MS, RotTR already sold millions, will sell millions more, then it will get more money to be on services like GwG, PS+, for more money. Which will help the next game do well. I imagine people will also buy the DLC.

RotTR in a different position than something like Rocket League having already sold millions and having a big money hat deal with MS.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Kerotan on 05 July 2016
Mr Puggsly said:
Kerotan said:

My argument on here is the ip is currently damaged.  The sooner you can admit that instead of trying to change the argument to something else the sooner we can move on.  

What IP is damaged? My memory is fuzzy. Was there any mention of it in the thread?

I think we could easily just move on now. No admiting required, we can just have different opinions.

My point is more common sense first and an opinion second.  The ip is damaged. 



Aura7541 on 05 July 2016
Mr Puggsly said:

If you talking about money now, you have to consider it got a money hat from MS, RotTR already sold millions, will sell millions more, then it will get more money to be on services like GwG, PS+, for more money. Which will help the next game do well. I imagine people will also buy the DLC.

RotTR in a different position than something like Rocket League having already sold millions and having a big money hat deal with MS.

Again, how do you know? You're making rather definitive statements without providing much elaboration. I warned you about Proof from Assertion and already, you're making this fatal mistake. You also overlooked some of my previous points, most notably whether Square Enix willing to take such lengths to increase the fanbase. Will it actually pay off on the long run or is SE better just putting in minimum effort and hope consumers will buy ROTR whenever they can? Whether SE got a lot of money from MS doesn't really matter if fanbase growth is significantly shackled because the latter is more important in the long term. And if it takes great lengths to grow that fanbase, then the money SE received from MS is pretty much moot.

You're also being vague when you throw the term "millions" around. How many millions? What is your source for that specific number and I hope you're not getting it from Chartz.



Mr Puggsly on 05 July 2016
Aura7541 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

If you talking about money now, you have to consider it got a money hat from MS, RotTR already sold millions, will sell millions more, then it will get more money to be on services like GwG, PS+, for more money. Which will help the next game do well. I imagine people will also buy the DLC.

RotTR in a different position than something like Rocket League having already sold millions and having a big money hat deal with MS.

Again, how do you know? You're making rather definitive statements without providing much elaboration. I warned you about Proof from Assertion and already, you're making this fatal mistake. You also overlooked some of my previous points, most notably whether Square Enix willing to take such lengths to increase the fanbase. Will it actually pay off on the long run or is SE better just putting in minimum effort and hope consumers will buy ROTR whenever they can? Whether SE got a lot of money from MS doesn't really matter if fanbase growth is significantly shackled because the latter is more important in the long term. And if it takes great lengths to grow that fanbase, then the money SE received from MS is pretty much moot.

You're also being vague when you throw the term "millions" around. How many millions? What is your source for that specific number and I hope you're not getting it from Chartz.

Steamspy, VGChartz, and assumption the game is doing okay digital on X1. MS said it sold well over million a while back.

How about you prove it didn't sell millions! See how I turned it around? How you like them apples?



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

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Aura7541 on 05 July 2016
Mr Puggsly said:
Aura7541 said:

Again, how do you know? You're making rather definitive statements without providing much elaboration. I warned you about Proof from Assertion and already, you're making this fatal mistake. You also overlooked some of my previous points, most notably whether Square Enix willing to take such lengths to increase the fanbase. Will it actually pay off on the long run or is SE better just putting in minimum effort and hope consumers will buy ROTR whenever they can? Whether SE got a lot of money from MS doesn't really matter if fanbase growth is significantly shackled because the latter is more important in the long term. And if it takes great lengths to grow that fanbase, then the money SE received from MS is pretty much moot.

You're also being vague when you throw the term "millions" around. How many millions? What is your source for that specific number and I hope you're not getting it from Chartz.

Steamspy, VGChartz, and assumption the game is doing okay digital on X1. MS said it sold well over million a while back.

How about you prove it didn't sell millions! See how I turned it around? How you like them apples?

You need to be more specific. I asked you how many millions. All you provided was a milestone that was met at the end of last year, but what is the number now and how do you know? Why do you think VGChartz is an appropriate source when NPD threads have shown that it does not track software accurately? What makes you assume that the game is doing okay digitally? Actually, why are you making assumptions in the first place?

The bolded is also a strawman fallacy as well as shifting the burden of proof to the skeptic. The burden of proof lies on the person making the positive claim and so far, you have not fulfilled that criteria.



Mr Puggsly on 05 July 2016
Aura7541 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Steamspy, VGChartz, and assumption the game is doing okay digital on X1. MS said it sold well over million a while back.

How about you prove it didn't sell millions! See how I turned it around? How you like them apples?

You need to be more specific. I asked you how many millions. All you provided was a milestone that was met at the end of last year, but what is the number now and how do you know? Why do you think VGChartz is an appropriate source when NPD threads have shown that it does not track software accurately? What makes you assume that the game is doing okay digitally? Actually, why are you making assumptions in the first place?

The bolded is also a strawman fallacy as well as shifting the burden of proof to the skeptic. The burden of proof lies on the person making the positive claim and so far, you have not fulfilled that criteria.

Given the information available to us and my assumptions based on trends, I think RotTR is nearing 3 million. I could absolutely be wrong though. The only real information we were given by MS is its well over a million on consoles.

So its my assumption based on information and trends, while you just feel the information available to us is bad and I shouldn't make assumptions. Nowhere for us to go. Nice chatting with ya!



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Aura7541 on 05 July 2016
Mr Puggsly said:
Aura7541 said:

You need to be more specific. I asked you how many millions. All you provided was a milestone that was met at the end of last year, but what is the number now and how do you know? Why do you think VGChartz is an appropriate source when NPD threads have shown that it does not track software accurately? What makes you assume that the game is doing okay digitally? Actually, why are you making assumptions in the first place?

The bolded is also a strawman fallacy as well as shifting the burden of proof to the skeptic. The burden of proof lies on the person making the positive claim and so far, you have not fulfilled that criteria.

Given the information available to us and my assumptions based on trends, I think RotTR is nearing 3 million. I could absolutely be wrong though. The only real information we were given by MS is its well over a million on consoles.

So its my assumption based on information and trends, while you just feel the information available to us is bad and I shouldn't make assumptions. Nowhere for us to go. Nice chatting with ya!

Based on what kind of information and trends? Specificity, Puggs. Specificity.

Furthermore, the bolded is yet another strawman fallacy. Expressing skepticism =/= Feeling the available information is bad. However, even if I bit on the fallacy, I don't need to "feel" that the information available is bad when the NPD threads explicitly show that VGC's software numbers aren't reliable. That is a conclusion based on empirical data, which is rather indistputable.

I'm happy to be proven wrong. However, you have not provided sufficient evidence and it makes things worse when you were given several opportunities to step up to the plate.



Mr Puggsly on 05 July 2016
Aura7541 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Given the information available to us and my assumptions based on trends, I think RotTR is nearing 3 million. I could absolutely be wrong though. The only real information we were given by MS is its well over a million on consoles.

So its my assumption based on information and trends, while you just feel the information available to us is bad and I shouldn't make assumptions. Nowhere for us to go. Nice chatting with ya!

Based on what kind of information and trends? Specificity, Puggs. Specificity.

Furthermore, the bolded is yet another strawman fallacy. Expressing skepticism =/= Feeling the available information is bad. However, even if I bit on the fallacy, I don't need to "feel" that the information available is bad when the NPD threads explicitly show that VGC's software numbers aren't reliable. That is a conclusion based on empirical data, which is rather indistputable.

I'm happy to be proven wrong. However, you have not provided sufficient evidence and it makes things worse when you were given several opportunities to step up to the plate.

VGChartz data is often adjusted for NPD data and its generally a pretty good reflection of how a game is doing, even if not 100% accurate.

You want to proven wrong but you haven't proven anything either. You're just here as a skeptic. Frankly, my assumption could even be low.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Aura7541 on 05 July 2016
Mr Puggsly said:
Aura7541 said:

Based on what kind of information and trends? Specificity, Puggs. Specificity.

Furthermore, the bolded is yet another strawman fallacy. Expressing skepticism =/= Feeling the available information is bad. However, even if I bit on the fallacy, I don't need to "feel" that the information available is bad when the NPD threads explicitly show that VGC's software numbers aren't reliable. That is a conclusion based on empirical data, which is rather indistputable.

I'm happy to be proven wrong. However, you have not provided sufficient evidence and it makes things worse when you were given several opportunities to step up to the plate.

VGChartz data is often adjusted for NPD data and its generally a pretty good reflection of how a game is doing, even if not 100% accurate.

You want to proven wrong but you haven't proven anything either. You're just here as a skeptic. Frankly, my assumption could even be low.

Aquamarine has stated in one of the NPD threads that data for old games, i.e. last-gen games, are pretty close. However, data for recent games are not accurate and ROTR is rather young. Considering Aqua has access to NPD's numbers and therefore, is able to make direct comparisons to VGC's data, I am inclined to take her word for it.

In addition, the burden of proof lies on the person making the positive claim, so to accuse me for being a skeptic is to accuse me for approaching this conversation in the correct manner. I cannot say the same for you, however. It's also rather telling when your arguments are reliant on assumptions since by definition, assumptions are conclusions without evidence.