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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is God's existence objectively verifiable?

 

Well, is it objectively verifiable?

Yes 57 15.20%
 
Not Sure 20 5.33%
 
No 244 65.07%
 
What's objective mean? 16 4.27%
 
Results 38 10.13%
 
Total:375
Soundwave said:
Dulfite said:
Torillian said:
sabvre42 said:
Torillian said:
Dulfite said:

It's not a rule against his own ability to be in sin, that is a common misconception. Sin is literally the opposite of God, because HE is totally holy and righteous. Sin is the absence of godliness. Again, people act like loving God is a sacrifice or that it's forced. HE is extending HIS hand to you and everyone else at all times. If people want to reject that hand, how is it God's fault? I love every second I've had since becoming a Christian, not just because I'm now saved (that's just the beginning) but now I have a relationship with the creator of myself, the way it was meant to be, and HE is constantly changing me for the better and ridding me of sinful desires and replacing those desires with love for HIM and love for HIS children (all humans). I have never loved believers in Christ and non believers more than I do now and I know that will continue to grow.

So what stops him from forgiving people of their sin without the whole "you have to love me and believe in me even though I gave you an analytical brain and refuse to prove myself logically" thing?  The concept of an all-powerful all-loving god that sends you to hell if you don't believe in him either requires that he has to (not all-powerful) or wants to (not all-loving).  

FYI - This is a classical misinterpretation. It wasn't until The Divine Comedy that hell was considered to be the concept that it is now. Its often considered a misintrepration by the catholic church in order to scare people into good behavior. 



So then there is no hell or hell isn't a place of fire and burning?  Because if there isn't hell and everyone goes to heaven I don't really have to concern myself with believing in god, and if there is a hell and god sends people there then I don't want to worship an asshole.  



There is a lake of fire and hell will be the worst thing for those who reject God's offering of salvation, but the worst part of hell, the part that people should be focusing on, is the eternal separation from God, who loves you more than you can comprehend.



Apparently doesn't love you enough or isn't powerful enough to get you out of there. 

This isn't a compassionate being, if a parent did something comparable to a child, we'd call the parent cruel and heartless. 

Also how egotistical or insecure is he that he needs to be constantly worshipped to? Does a parent ask his kids to worship him/her constantly? 

Dude creates the entire cosmos but still needs a pledge of allegiance that only be sanctioned by particular religious sects? Yeah that makes sense. 

 

Your perception is common amongst nonbelivers, but it isn't correct. There are tons of formally non-believers or believers in other religions who had the same arguments as you, yet have turned to Christ or will turn to Christ (you, yourself, may one day do it as well and have a wonderful story to share).

You can't think of God casting people into hell. More realistically, you should view it as people walking into hell on their own accord due to constantly sinning and not accepting the FREE and EASY gift that is Jesus Christ. God is right next to people trying to get them off the path to hell, trying to convince them that HE loves them, and yet there are some/many that just refuse HIM their entire lives. If they had turned towards Christ then they wouldn't be going to hell, it's that simple.

And again, there is nothing stressful about accepting Jesus Christ. I garuntee you, the people most at peace in the world are those who love Jesus. There are trials we go through of ups and downs that helps us grow. After any rough patch we can always cling to our LORD and savior and feel restored and motivated again.

HE doesn't need or require our worship, HE has always existed (unlike humanity). HE wants us to love HIM and HE wants to love us. HE cares deeply for us and wants us to have a truly wonderful existence:

Revelation 21:3-4 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

This is not the description of an egotistical god who wants people to pledge their alleigence to him. God wants to spend eternity LOVING us, but the devil and mankind itself has done an amazing job at convincing non-believers that God is just full of himself, that is until they realize the truth and turn to Christ like so many have and so many more will. I hope one day you will realize this and accept Jesus as your savior so that you too can have the free gift of life.



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Snoopy said:
I find it more believable that something created this world to be honest then by luck everything happened in a specific order of random occurrences to create this world. Seriously, look at what scientists believe (which always changes) and see how crazy it is that all these things happen in a specific order to create us. The odds of this to be correct has to be in the same realm as winning the lottery over and over.

The results of you in particular being born are astronomical.  There are about 200 million sperm in the male ejaculation.  So right off the bat, you have a one in 200 million chance.  That sperm had to exist within the same month as the egg that created you.  To make the math easier, we'll call that one in 2 billion.  Of course, we have to factor in that a woman is only ovulating about one week of the month.  So, that's one in 8 billion now.  If we took into accounts years and stuff, that'd make it messier, so let's assume a 100% chance that your parents would have sex on the year you were born.

That's just the odds after the fact of your parents having sex.  We'll forget about the likelyhood of them meeting for now, cause I can't really quantify this.  But, the chances of each of your parents being born would have to be the same... So, that's now about one in 500 billion.  And of course, their parents had to be a certain combination of sperm and egg, so the odds are again multiplied by 8 billion.  So thats... 4 trillion... 32 trillion.... 240 trillion... One in 1.6 quadrillion....

So the odds of the particular lifeform known as "you" existing is at less than one in a quadrillion.  This is only going to your grandparent's generation, and assuming there is a 100% chance that all of your parents/grandparents/etc. will meet.  If we calculated the actual odds, starting from let's say the year 0 CE, I'm quite possitive the odds of your existence would be less than one in a centillion (one with 303 zeroes).  Like... way less...

So, you were incredibly incredibly lucky to be born.  Does that mean that there was a higher power orchestrating this?  Who picked out each sperm, played matchmaker for your parents, and their parents and so on?  I'm guessing that you think not.

This would be a weird thing to think, because it is only a lucky event from your perspective.  To the billions upon billions of upon billions of other potential children who could have been born, this was not a special occurence, or a particularly good occurence.  It was just a thing that happened.  The event only becomes lucky when you assume that you being created is the end goal.

And, so it is with the universe.  If you assume that the goal of the universe was the creation of this particular form of life, then it seems incredibly lucky.  But, this is an incredibly human biased perspective.  

What if we don't assume that humanity existing and thriving was the end goal?  Then, it doesn't seem so lucky anymore.  If we start from the creation of Earth, there are potentially billions of other animals that can be the dominant species of the planet at this point in time.  This isn't a particularly lucky outcome for them.  Going back further, if the universe was created in a different way, it may have been possible for trillions and trillions of other lifeforms to arise.  This is not a lucky outcome for them.

Even this is biased towards life.  As living beings, we naturally think life is great.  But, considering the size and scope of the universe, one particular planet having little weird things posting on internet forums doesn't seem very significant.  

 

To sum it up, I'll give one more example.  The odds of getting a royal flush in poker are about one in 30,000.  The odds of getting the 3 of clubs, five of diamonds, Jack of spades, 8 of hearts, and the 6 of hearts is exactly the same.  So, why do we consider it so much more lucky to get a royal flush than that hand?  Because we are biased towards our own success.

The universe existing as it does is a royal flush for humanity.  But, outisde of humanity, it's simply one hand that could be dealt.  It is no more or less special than any other hand that may have been dealt.



Dulfite said:
Soundwave said:

Apparently doesn't love you enough or isn't powerful enough to get you out of there. 

This isn't a compassionate being, if a parent did something comparable to a child, we'd call the parent cruel and heartless. 

Also how egotistical or insecure is he that he needs to be constantly worshipped to? Does a parent ask his kids to worship him/her constantly? 

Dude creates the entire cosmos but still needs a pledge of allegiance that only be sanctioned by particular religious sects? Yeah that makes sense. 

 

Your perception is common amongst nonbelivers, but it isn't correct. There are tons of formally non-believers or believers in other religions who had the same arguments as you, yet have turned to Christ or will turn to Christ (you, yourself, may one day do it as well and have a wonderful story to share).

You can't think of God casting people into hell. More realistically, you should view it as people walking into hell on their own accord due to constantly sinning and not accepting the FREE and EASY gift that is Jesus Christ. God is right next to people trying to get them off the path to hell, trying to convince them that HE loves them, and yet there are some/many that just refuse HIM their entire lives. If they had turned towards Christ then they wouldn't be going to hell, it's that simple.

And again, there is nothing stressful about accepting Jesus Christ. I garuntee you, the people most at peace in the world are those who love Jesus. There are trials we go through of ups and downs that helps us grow. After any rough patch we can always cling to our LORD and savior and feel restored and motivated again.

HE doesn't need or require our worship, HE has always existed (unlike humanity). HE wants us to love HIM and HE wants to love us. HE cares deeply for us and wants us to have a truly wonderful existence:

Revelation 21:3-4 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

This is not the description of an egotistical god who wants people to pledge their alleigence to him. God wants to spend eternity LOVING us, but the devil and mankind itself has done an amazing job at convincing non-believers that God is just full of himself, that is until they realize the truth and turn to Christ like so many have and so many more will. I hope one day you will realize this and accept Jesus as your savior so that you too can have the free gift of life.

 

If god just wanted to love us and us love him, there would be no point in sending humans to hell. No parent would punish their child with everlasting damnation and torture for not having a relationship with 'em or for not obeying 'em. We were given life on earth to prove ourselves worthy to god otherwise why would he pull that shit he did with Job? It has nothing do with love.

As for lucifer, he's an unruly employee of god whose sole job is to tempt people into sinning or straying from god. Lucifer has no power of his own, every bit of his supposed power is granted by god. God uses temptation and Lucifer to test our "faith" in him and if we will give into our weaknesses. The price of failing that test after you die is ultimately hell where you tortured for all time. Again, it has nothing to do with love.



I've seen too many things in my life to question the existance of God.



The problem is that too many see God as a rationally thinking, human-shaped being with superpowers. But the reality is that he is everything and nothing. We also have to be careful when we talk about "The God" because in fact there are countless Gods and it's important to differentiate between the God in Heaven and God the Allmighty. If you don't know the difference between the two, you missed a decissive factor in Christianity/religion.



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Ljink96 said:
I've seen too many things in my life to question the assistance of God.

Just gonna leave this here:

RadiantDanceMachine said:

It is my position that no amount of subjective evidence would be sufficient to prove a claim. 

Since subjective evidence is mere opinion, it serves no function in matters of truth.

 





Snoopy said:
I find it more believable that something created this world to be honest then by luck everything happened in a specific order of random occurrences to create this world. Seriously, look at what scientists believe (which always changes) and see how crazy it is that all these things happen in a specific order to create us. The odds of this to be correct has to be in the same realm as winning the lottery over and over.

In an infinite universe, even the most unprobable things will happen sooner or later again and again and again. Even if the chance of something to happen is below 0.000000000000000000001 %, it will happen eventually if you just repeat a process long enough. For all we know, the universe certainly does look to be infinite. Which means everything that can happen, has happended countless times before and will happen an infinite number of times again. So be happy, you're gonna be a millionaire some day. And you're gonna be piss poor at some point. It's inevitable. 

Even if the universe is finite, it is so big that small probabilities aren't out of question by any means.



Official member of VGC's Nintendo family, approved by the one and only RolStoppable. I feel honored.

metroidking said:

I agree that science is the best method for determining causes and cures to illness and mental ailments. I never said it wasnt.

Thats right, god is my excuse for all things I dont currently understand and it seems to only make the most sense in the interim until science proves otherwise which I highly doubt that it ever will.  God comes down to a belief thing you believe he exists or you dont and either way is fine. I kind of believe both science and the supernatural balance out life's equilibrium. When we lean to much either way thats when we get problems on both sides. 

Im open to being convinced that there isnt a god or at least some sort of supernatural spiritual realm but im yet to be convinced, in my mind there are to many supernatural occurences on a day by day basis that science is YET to have an explanation for. I will continue to believe that until I see compelling evidence that he/it doesnt.

But I certaintly dont think that there is an explanation for everything via science either now or hundreds of years in the future but hey thats my view each to there own I say.



"God explains [insert phenomenon] until proven otherwise"

http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignorance.html

You're welcome.





RadiantDanceMachine said:
Ljink96 said:
I've seen too many things in my life to question the assistance of God.

Just gonna leave this here:

RadiantDanceMachine said:

It is my position that no amount of subjective evidence would be sufficient to prove a claim. 

Since subjective evidence is mere opinion, it serves no function in matters of truth.

 



That's fine. Believe what you will. But I guess the Bible was a novel written by Shakespeare.





asqarkabab said:
Mr.Playstation said:

Moses- Existed
Jesus- Existed
Abraham -Existed

They all talked about the same god and there was a period of 2000 years between Abraham and Jesus.

how you know that moses and abraham existed ??

jesus is another case

like Muhammad and all other prophets 

God exists because the world was not created automaticely

Well, we at least know Noah existed because they found the ark a while back. It had the exact same dimensions as described in the Bible. And I guess, if those people don't exist then the Roman empire didn't exist too? You can freaking visit Jesus's tomb. There has been water found in which one group of h20 is hydrophobic of another, hinting at water that was split by Moses.