Airaku said:
Indeed we are wasting our time. I've seen a few of your posts and it appears that you go around trying to prove people wrong and put them down. I don't even know why I am arguing with you at this point. You try to dodge everything and call people out on various opinions or insights. I have come to conclude that it is very possible that you have an "inferiority complex". The need to act superior over others to boost your own confidence.
Unfortunately, the reality is that I provided knowledge that I felt many people on here would not have. I concluded that they may not have this knowledge by the simple fact that I doubt every one on here has contact with people from Bioware. I was under no way obliged to share such information nor am I obliged to give you any information on my sources. Sharing information regarding corporate information, including but not limited to staff or affairs is prohibited. I am sorry that such a rule is a thorn to your inconvenience and made you conclude that I am lying. That doesn't mean you should be a jackass and ruin it for people who may actually want to engage in a meaningful conversation about the game and its development. I very much can relate with the information I was told, and the game that I played. I explained why the number went to 7. You chose to ignore what I said about making it sound like marketing BS data. It's not lying, but it's not entirely honest. It makes one look better than they really are. Something that as I said, was unfaithful of myself.
You are more than free to formulate your own opinions and interpretation of anything in the universe. You have a mind and you are free to use it. From where I sit, I think you are a very intelligent person. Arrogant, but intelligent. Your interpretation of ME3 is very different from others. Just because you feel you are right in your mind, doesn't make you right in comparison to the rest of us. That conclusion is just down right silly. This rubs off as embarrassment as I am reading this from someone who "claims" to have a master's degree in English.
As for that authority thing you posted. It made me laugh a little because I am quite the opposite of that. As someone who is quite philosophical and scientific. I delve into a lot of research to form my own opinions on various matters. For example global warming is an issue. Some scientist claim that all the ice is going to melt and sea levels will rise drastically. Quite a bold claim that will makes sense to a lot of people. However in reality, the North Pole is shrinking but Antarctica is growing and continues to reach breaking records of growth in human history. One theory is the south is getting colder and the north is getting warmer. A huge change in the eco-system that will affect society. Someone might even try to conclude the possibility of an eventual rain forest in Canada and snow storms in Brazil. Something that is unfathomable to most people. This remains food for thought in the scientific realm. While this is irrelevant to the conversation, it shows that different people, even in the fields they are from. Will draw different conclusions.
Are you really going to use typos and simple mistakes as an example? Really dude, really? Come on. "Larry Potter". I think even the average high school drop out can tell the difference with that one. That was just a silly example that failed to prove a point. It is illogical to assume that a author will intentionally lie about their work. On the contrary it does happen. But this is a very weak argument to use for your case. You can very well argue that the original version of a story and book is canon, but in reality the canon is defined by the "definitive" version. This is very common knowledge and I do not believe for a second that you fail to recognise this. You can assess each version separately to your hearts content. You are also free to imagine that the original version is the real version because you prefer that story. That is your right. Even if it is not correct in reality.
I feel that you have a lack of understanding of themes and base concepts that are the foundation of the story and/or work. In game development it is very common for a game to be created revolving a certain single concept. I've told you what was used in the case of Mass Effect. You do not like the answer and continue to argue against it. God of War is the simplest concept. Santa Monica wrote the theme and concept as "Battling Greek Gods" and "Gore and Violence". A very basic concept that grew into a fun game. Video game development is VERY different than writing a book. Writing a book is very different than film. You are trying to use your knowledge of literature to assess each one with the same logic. So I still stand by my claims and what I have been told. The base foundation remains and it appears to me that you were unable to comprehend this. To say I am wrong is an act of desperation. I cannot admit to the idea that you are right, when you are not. From a game development point of view. You miss the mark by miles.
I will give you credit where it's due. I think it's quite insightful of you to consider sometimes an author fails to conceive their vision on paper. Failing to explain events that change the interpretation and/or meaning of a plot point. Unfortunately this is not the case for our debate here. Another interesting concept is where an author writes a story with the expectation of the reader to have knowledge on the concept or myth the story is based on. This was the fallacy of the film "Jupiter Ascending". Millions have misinterpreted that film because of this, it backfired backin the face of the Wachowski brothers. In the case of "Memento or K-pax" those films were created to keep people guessing after the film and debate for a long time to come. The ending of Mass Effect had the same intention. The fact we are still talking about Mass Effect today means one thing. Bioware has succeeded in that specific goal. The film "Snowpiercer" is a film that was often misinterpreted by a lot of people. I have tons of friends who have troubles grasping the concept. Yet on the other side of the coin. Thousands of people understand the film without a hitch. Literature can be a double edge sword for many authors. Not everyone thinks the same and not everyone perceives information the same. Clearly this is a case that is relevant to this case.
You continue to dodge and weave around certain aspects of the debate. Words such as "I'm not going into this" show that. Perhaps a lack of knowledge on said subjects of that matter. Or it's your way of trying to sound smart when you are wrong. Regardless of your reasons. It is something you should be aware of when you engage in debates.
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"Indeed we are wasting our time. I've seen a few of your posts and it appears that you go around trying to prove people wrong and put them down. I don't even know why I am arguing with you at this point. You try to dodge everything and call people out on various opinions or insights. I have come to conclude that it is very possible that you have an "inferiority complex". The need to act superior over others to boost your own confidence."
This is pure flaming, and I would appreciate an apology. I absolutely enjoy trying to prove people wrong. I like debate. I enjoy it as an intellectual exercise, and I value my own opinion, and feel it is worth defending.
By the way, I did mention I got a degree in English right? Do you think I spent four years of my life discussing and arguing about literature because I didn't like doing it?
To say I have an inferiority complex is a pure personal attack and is totally unacceptable. Before you point out that I called you a liar, I called you a liar because I demonstrated that you lied. It was also directly relevant to the conversation because it pertained to the reliability of information you were citing.
I do not put people down. I put ideas down. If your idea is wrong, I will put it down as such. I said this very early on in the conversation. If you don't like this, that is your business. If you don't want to speak with me, you are not obligated to. Simply apologize for the personal insults, and move on with your life.
Whether or not I have an inferiority complex is entirely irrelevant to this debate, which is flaming, not to mention another logical fallacy. (Ad hominen attack). Which is quite similar to the argument from authority fallacy, in which you're arguing about the characteristics of the person making a claim and not the claim itself.
By the way, I don't know why you put "inferiority complex" in quotes. And did you just accuse someone of having a inferiority complex, and then explain it to them in a condescending manner as if they were too dumb to know what a very common term meant? That's one of the funniest damn things I've ever seen. The irony is delicious.
Unfortunately, the reality is that I provided knowledge that I felt many people on her would not have. I concluded that they may not have this knowledge by the simple fact that I doubt every one on here has contact with people from Bioware. I was under no way obliged to share such information nor am I obliged to give you any information on my sources. Sharing information regarding corporate information, including but not limited to staff or affairs is prohibited. I am sorry that such a rule is a thorn to your inconvenience and made you conclude that I am lying. That doesn't mean you should be a jackass and ruin it for people who may actually want to engage in a meaningful conversation about the game and its development. I very much can relate with the information I was told, and the game that I played. I explained why the number went to 7. You chose to ignore what I said about making it sound like marketing BS data. It's not lying, but it's not entirely honest. It makes one look better than they really are. Something that as I said, was unfaithful of myself.
The idea that they can't share the theme of the actual game without getting in trouble is absolutely laughable. Are you saying that the MAIN THEME of the game is sensitive corporate information? Or that the company cannot share the name of their staff? Is this the CIA? Ridiculous.
And no, you are not obligated to share any information. UNLESS YOU WANT TO USE IT TO SUPPORT YOUR POINT OF VIEW. If you expect me to take what you're saying as some sort of definitive proof regarding the theme of the game, then you absolutely need to back your shit up. But that is not why I called you a liar (or at least not the main reason).
I called you a liar because you lied. I concluded that you lied because you made four statements that all contradicted each other. They cannot all be true. If you spoke to two people at Bioware, you lied about talking to seven people. One of them is a lie. It is lying 100%, which is why I ignored you talking about marketing BS. And right after saying you artificially changed the number, you AGAIN changed it from "precisely" 7 to "at least" 7. So were you lying about it being 7, or about 2? Can you keep your own lies straight?
"It's not lying but it's not entirely honest." We're not politicians here, so I'm not going to accept such nonsense. If you claim honesty is so important to you, I don't see how you can make such a claim. A knowingly untrue statement is a lie. If you said something that you knew was untrue, you lied. Simple. And now you are lying about lying. That's lying squared.
And yet again you are making unfounded personal attacks. You made a claim to me in a conversation with me. Calling that out does not make me a jackass, and it does not ruin it for anyone else who may want to discuss it with you. They are free to go ahead. And I didn't call you out on being a liar until you called me out for "assuming" that you only spoke to one person, before you jacked it up to 7. But keep going with the insults I guess.
As for that authority thing you posted. It made me laugh a little because I am quite the opposite of that.
-_-;; Your whole argument is that it is true because the people at Bioware said so. I don't know what you are or how you live your life outside of this conversation. But I know what you are doing now. And you are relying on an argument from authority fallacy. And you want me to do the same, without even having any direct comment from the authority.
As someone who is quite philosophical and scientific. I delve into a lot of research to form my own opinions on various matters. For example global warming is an issue. Some scientist claim that all the ice is going to melt and sea levels will rise drastically. Quite a bold claim that will makes sense to a lot of people. However in reality, the North Pole is shrinking but Antarctica is growing and continues to reach breaking records of growth in human history. One theory is the south is getting colder and the north is getting warmer. A huge change in the eco-system that will affect society. Someone might even try to conclude the possibility of an eventual rain forest in Canada and snow storms in Brazil. Something that is unfathomable to most people. This remains food for thought in the scientific realm. While this is irrelevant to the conversation, it shows that different people, even in the fields they are from. Will draw different conclusions.
Since you're going to accuse me of dodging questions later, I'll address this now. I'm not dodging anything, I'm reacting when you're dodging a question. You're admitting that this is irrelevant, as you have with several other things, and then accusing me of dodging it. This did not respond to anything I said, or address the argument from authority fallacy.
But hey, good for you for looking up your own information. Of course, if you are willing to doubt the scientific community (which is fine) then it is stupid to expect me not to doubt your silly claims. If you are as scientific as you claim, you should know why I doubt claims that are not supported by evidence.
Are you really going to use typos and simple mistakes as an example? Really dude, really? Come on. "Larry Potter". I think even the average high school drop out can tell the difference with that one. That was just a silly example that failed to prove a point. It is illogical to assume that a author will intentionally lie about their work. On the contrary it does happen. But this is a very weak argument to use for your case. You can very well argue that the original version of a story and book is canon, but in reality the canon is defined by the "definitive" version. This is very common knowledge and I do not believe for a second that you fail to recognise this. You can assess each version separately to your hearts content. You are also free to imagine that the original version is the real version because you prefer that story. That is your right. Even if it is not correct in reality.
Do you know what an analogy is? When you use a simpler example to illustrate a more complex concept? The point is that statements can be wrong. Maybe it's because of a typo, because of an intentional lie, or simply a mistake. It doesn't matter why the claim is wrong, just that it is wrong. Regardless of why these mistakes are made, we need a way to determine whether statements are true or not. We do so by looking at the text. I I was trying to dumb it down to a typo level because you consistently are not responding to more complex examples.
You are not using the term canon in the correct literary sense. Canon, in terms of literature, is simply a collection of works that are considered very important. The works may or may not be related.
You're using it in the comic book/manga sense, which is sort of different. This kind of canon really has no bearing on the way analyze literature, which is why I didn't consider it. But... if you want to go on another irrelevant tangent, then fine.
The kind of canon you're referring to is when there are conflicting accounts of story within a body of work. For example, in one Fantastic Four comic (let's call this issue 12), Mister Fantastic met Susan when she was like 12 and he was in college. This was incredibly creepy, so a later story (let's call this issue 20) was made that changed it so that they met as adults. There is no "real" or "not real" version. There are just two seperate stories. Each version of this story is "real" within its own comic book. Marvel chose to base their future stories on the second version, because the first one was creepy.
Of course, none of these stories are real. None of these accounts are "correct in reality" because neither Harry Potter, Greedo, Mister Fantastic, or Susan Storm exist in reality. If you're reading Fantastic Four #12, then the creepy version is "real" to the context of that story. If your frame of reference is issue #20, then the less creepy version is true in that context. If you're referring to the most recent issues of Fantastic Four, then the less creepy version is true in this context. In reality, neither of these characters exist and they have thus never met. So to say one version is "correct in reality" is a really silly thing to say if you understand what reality is.
The "definitive" version has nothing to do with reality.... cause again, none of this is real. It's just the version that the author likes best, or represents their vision most clearly, or is most marketable, or the version they want to sell for whatever reason. That doesn't make one real and the other not real. Both stories still exist, and the truth will depend on what you're reading at the time.
The reason I didn't want to address this earlier is because IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. We are not talking about a situation where there are two different versions of something. We are talking about an issue where there is something said outside the text which disagrees with something inside the text. In which case, text always wins.
I feel that you have a lack of understanding of themes and base concepts that are the foundation of the story and/or work. In game development it is very common for a game to be created revolving a certain single concept. I've told you what was used in the case of Mass Effect. You do not like the answer and continue to argue against it. God of War is the simplest concept. Santa Monica wrote the theme and concept as "Battling Greek Gods" and "Gore and Violence". A very basic concept that grew into a fun game. Video game development is VERY different than writing a book. Writing a book is very different than film. You are trying to use your knowledge of literature to assess each one with the same logic. So I still stand by my claims and what I have been told. The base foundation remains and it appears to me that you were unable to comprehend this. To say I am wrong is an act of desperation. I cannot admit to the idea that you are right, when you are not. From a game development point of view. You miss the mark by miles.
Can you show that I have a lack of understanding on theme? Cause, I'm sorry to go to the college well again, but if you are going to AGAIN use personal attacks, I have to defend myself with evidence from my personal life. I have a degree showing I do know a lot about theme. I also have a master's degree showing I know how to teach theme to others. Which is not to say I CAN'T be wrong, but I have compelling evidence to show that I am indeed very capable of explaining theme. So, unless you can point out something I've said that shows I do not (aside from me not believing that your uncle works at Bioware or whatever), then do not insult my intelligence. Another personal attack.
Again, I continue to argue against you because you have not given me evidence. And no, yet again, claiming that someone told you does not count.
We are using literary terms because we are analyzing a story, not the gameplay. But do you want to talk about gameplay? Fine, let's do that.
One of the core gameplay elements is the paragon/renegade meter. The paragon/renegade meter informs the dialogue tree options, which has a direct impact on how the game unfolds. Paragon options are generally, but not always, associated with allying yourself with the larger intergalactic community, and renegade with placing humanity above all else. For example, in Mass Effect 1, identifying yourself with the alliance earns you renegade points, and identifying yourself as a spectre earns you paragon points. In the second game, associating yourself with the anti-alien cerberus gives you renegade points, and defying them gives you paragon points. Selling out the Krogan for the sake of humanity (to earn Salarian aid) gives you renegade points, and refusing gives you paragon points.
So, not only is the idea of cooperation vs individualism baked into every facet of the story, but it is also part of the fabric of the gameplay as well. It is literally staring you at the face for the entirety of the trilogy. Notice that there is no "organic vs synthetic" meter as part of the gameplay.
And your statement that organics vs synthetics is the key gameplay concept is also ridiculously wrong. A HUGE part of the game is spent not fighting against synthetics. In fact, I'd say far less than half of the trilogy is spent not fighting synthetics. In the second game for instance, the only times you fight synthetics are legion and Tali's missions, and the reaper at the end. At least 75% of the game is spent fighting organic life, and that ratio would also be about right for Mass Effect 3. Although there are corrupted organics which is a gray area. As I said, from a story perspective, Mass Effect 1 is the only one where the main theme is (or could be) organics vs synthetics, and that is also the only game where you spend most of your time fighting synthetics.
This is not to mention the time you spend on the citidel. A huge part of the game is devoted to building up an intergalactic coalition. In the second game, you do this by building individual ties to your teammates. In the third, this concept is broadened to forming alliances with different species and organizations. While this is related to fighting the reapers in the sense of the story, the actual gameplay element is having conversations, and either cooperating with allies or coercing others to fight with you. If you say that the idea of the game design is just fighting against synthetics you're ignoring more than half the combat, and nearly everything outside of it.
Now here's the part where I'm going to insult your ideas, and you're going to accuse me of being too mean. It's not that I'm saying you're wrong as an act of desperation. It's that I'm saying you're wrong because I'm not a moron.
See what I just did earlier was provide you with EVIDENCE that backs up my claim. Information from the game that supports what I'm saying. What you've done is said "someone at Bioware told me". You have given me no corroborating evidence for that story, you have admittedly been dishonest about at least part of it, and you have provided nothing from the game. And I'm desperate for arguing against that? Lolol.
"will give you credit where it's due. I think it's quite insightful of you to consider sometimes an author fails to conceive their vision on paper. Failing to explain events that change the interpretation and/or meaning of a plot point. Unfortunately this is not the case for our debate here. Another interesting concept is where an author writes a story with the expectation of the reader to have knowledge on the concept or myth the story is based on. This was the fallacy of the film "Jupiter Ascending". Millions have misinterpreted that film because of this, it backfired backin the face of the Wachowski brothers. In the case of "Memento or K-pax" those films were created to keep people guessing after the film and debate for a long time to come. The ending of Mass Effect had the same intention. The fact we are still talking about Mass Effect today means one thing. Bioware has succeeded in that specific goal. The film "Snowpiercer" is a film that was often misinterpreted by a lot of people. I have tons of friends who have troubles grasping the concept. Yet on the other side of the coin. Thousands of people understand the film without a hitch. Literature can be a double edge sword for many authors. Not everyone thinks the same and not everyone perceives information the same. Clearly this is a case that is relevant to this case."
This is pretty self contradictory. The idea of Mass Effect was to be ambiguous enough to get people to wonder, yet you're basically telling me I have to believe what you say with no evidence?
And I haven't seen any of those movies (except for Memento which was fairly clear aside from its structure), so I can't comment on them, nor do I see how they are relevant to this conversation, at least not without more details. The conversation is not whether or not films can have multiple interpretations. It is about whether or not we should accept claims from an author without evidence, and about what the theme of Mass Effect 3 was. You've addressed neither. The reason I've been sticking to examples like Harry Potter and Star Wars is because they are really popular.
"You continue to dodge and weave around certain aspects of the debate. Words such as "I'm not going into this" show that. Perhaps a lack of knowledge on said subjects of that matter. Or it's your way of trying to sound smart when you are wrong. Regardless of your reasons. It is something you should be aware of when you engage in debates."
Again I am going to call you a liar, because again, you are lying. And you are again attacking me personally. Which is what people often do when they're flailing around in an argument.
I have said "I'm not going into this" (or something similar) precisely twice (at least in that last post and I don't think at all before). When I have done so, I have quoted it anyway and given a clear explanation why. I wasn't dodgind aspects of this debate, I was dodging your random tangents that were not part of the debate. The things I specifically did not address were Star Wars and the ending.
The reason I didn't address these things were because they would take us far off topic. Star Wars was a bad example as that is the case of a film having actual different versions, and not a matter of interpretation. Our conversation about Star Wars was going nowhere. The conversation is about Mass Effect 3. I brought up Star Wars as a quick example, and you got into a whole thing about it, and defending George Lucas, and blah blah, and wouldn't give it up after I explained why it was a bad example. An author making a claim about an existing work is different than them making a new and different work. If you don't get this, I'm sorry.
I also said I wasn't going into this regarding the ending, because I never talked about which ending was "real" and I didn't feel like defending a position I never claimed to hold that was irrelevant to the conversation. But you want me too? Fine. None of them are "real", but I'll use "real" as meaning canonical. I think all the endings are equally real, because it is an interactive narrative. If you chose control, that is the real ending and so on. Unless there is something in Andromeda that contradicts one ending or confirms another, all the endings are equally valid in my mind. For example, if Reapers show up in Andromeda, obviously destroy can't work anymore, and if Shepard still exists, then control can't be right, and if Joker doesn't have a robodick, then synthesis isn't right. Until then, they're all valid no matter how stupid synthesis is.
Are we any closer to reaching a conclusion now? No. You happy I addressed this copletely irrelevant topic? Glad that useless shit is out of the way.
Btw, I have quoted absolutely everything you said to ensure I either responded to it all or provided justification for ignoring it. Not only that, but I've specifically asked you for clarification on specific points so I COULD address them. The exact opposite of what you've done.
Now, let's see how much you dodged...
You completely ignored the logical proof, completely dropped the line of conversation about the statement about my post being wrong, competely ignored the point about the argument from authority fallacy your case has been built upon, you have not clarified whether writers are often or always right, you have STILL NOT EXPLAINED HOW WE SHOULD DISTINGUISH BETWEEN TRUE AND FALSE STATEMENTS BY AUTHORS, YOU HAVE STILL NOT EXPLAINED HOW SYNTHETICS VS ORGANICS IS MORE RELEVANT THAN ANY OTHER TOPIC. And you still haven't explained why on Earth I should believe your claim about who you spoke to at Bioware.
You rely on the argument from authority fallacy, you don't back up a single thing you've said, you throw out personal attacks, you clearly lie (unless 1=2=7<7 that is), you ramble about completely irrelevant topics (I really don't care in the least about your script or your anomalous writing on the internet). And you're telling me how to debate? Lulz.
But here, I'll teach you the most important thing about debate. YOU BACK UP WHAT YOU SAY WITH EVIDENCE. That's really, the most important thing by far. Your whole argument is "I talked to one... no two... no 7... no at least 7 people at Bioware. So you have to believe me." Your whole "debate" is one probably fraudulent claim with no supporting evidence. So, don't pretend to understand anything about debate when you can't get the first thing right. ^_^