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Forums - Politics Discussion - Can Feminists Get Any More Desperate?

A_C_E on 14 January 2016
o_O.Q said:

"I'm simply pointing out that not ALL men produce more testosterone than ALL women."

i feel the need to ask thiis again but you are aware of the purpose of testosterone and why we call it the male sex hormone right?

What I stated was fact. Just because you can't accept a fact doesn't give you the need to put forth a red herring fallacy. If i did or didn't know why we call testosterone a male sex hormone it would not change the fact that not all men produce more testosterone than all women.

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" Also, we keep jumping back and forth between physiology and psychology"

they are both linked anyway so doesn't matter

Agreed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"lol but you are missing the point... which is that a larger concentration produces a significantly larger effect"

"Which I am not arguing against..."

" I said it is not dependent on the amount. "

I understand (obviously) that a larger concentration produces a larger effect, but the amount of testosterone does not dictate whether a man is a man, just heavily influences the procedural building blocks. Also, I said in full, "I did not state that a man can still be a man without testosterone, I said it is not dependent on the amount." Your fire analogy was not one to show the effects of testosterone physically but instead was used to describe what would happen mentally; in that more aggression would ensue the more testosterone was available. What you just did was improperly quote me without offering any context to what I was responding to in the original claim. That is the definition of misrepresentation.

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"ut now we are on the topic of physiology where I have already stated that men and women aren't exactly the same"

testosterone and its effects are also a part of physiology 

...agreed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" The video was made by someone with overly feministic views"

that's ironic coming from a guy desperately trying to prove that men and women are almost the same and failing miserably

One thing I am failing miserably at is getting you to understand that I am technically agreeing with you while also pointing out that generalizations only lead to mixed results hence why it would be better to look at an individual as an individual, not a man or a woman. Now I am of course speaking on social terms here. But what you do in these situations is claim that I don't know that women on average produce more estrogen and that men on average produce more testosterone, do you even know the effects of testosterone...these silly questions lead to nowhere.

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" you're using it to prove that men are psychologically different?"

no i'm just saying that the vieo was made with the understanding that men and women are different with regards to their behavior

Your saying the video was made with the understanding that men and women are different with regards to their behavior? Does that make it true? I don't care what the video says first of all, it doesn't change what is. Second of all, I was under the impression that the video simply didn't want to acknowledge that the average male doesn't act like their portrayal of men, or boys if you will.


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DonFerrari on 14 January 2016
A_C_E said:
DonFerrari said:

No you are trying to push a small overlap as being equal... if 99% of the cases man have a lot more testosterone than Woman and that causes very clear effects it's silly even on a cientific stand point to say the are inexistent because both produce some of it.

I have already stated that men are much more likely to produce more testosterone than women, I have never argued against this and have actually already agreed with it for obvious reasons. Why keep coming back to something that almost all people already know? There is nothing special about saying men have more testosterone than women and it proves nothing other than men may act more aggressively because of the higher amounts of testosterone. How many times do I have to agree with this? Of course men have more testosterone but if your still arguing with me then maybe you don't quite understand my claims, maybe that is my fault, I can admit but I feel as though I have been pretty good on acknowledging the differences between men and women.

My claim is that psychology is not bound by what sex you are, literally that simple. How is this overlapping my points?

Nope. Your fault is denying that the hormones have an effect of physicological aspects of woman and man and saying that is because both produce it in some way.

And yes most of the emotions (but no pre-menstrual issues) could be produced by either gender... but why a set of them is more common on men or women? And why men and women have different inclinations and interests? Guess why, because they are different.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari on 14 January 2016
SpokenTruth said:
Aeolus451 said:
SpokenTruth said:

Again, the ad could be better but it's only a product of the issue.  Akin to attacking the messenger (and message) rather than the underlying problem itself.

Should ads be produced that teach women how to prevent dangerous circumstances?  Damn good idea.  Should laws be enacted with stricter punishments for rape and false rape accusations?  Even better idea.

But if we don't understand why these kinds of ads (even these poor ones) are made in the first place, we are missing the bigger issue.  If we fight over the video, we ignore the real problem.  This is our problem.  We immediately wonder why they are attacking all of us men.  We wonder why they are accusing us of possibly being rapists just because we look, flirt or whistle.  We wonder why they see us as doing wrong just for being men.  When what we really should be wondering is why this kind of ad was needed in the first place. 

We look at ourselves individually and take umbrage for the accusation (granted every group does this regardless of association...race, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc...).  But we fail to look at ourselves as a collective sex.  We fail to ask ourselves as men if we are really doing all we can to protect and prevent ourselves (as a group, not individually) from harming women.  It's a tough thing to reflect on because we'd rather put that repsonsibility elsewhere.

This type of video/ad was not needed in the first place because it's misguided or tells a flawed message on every level. In other words, no one should take it seriously because it's most likely created by a radicalized feminist that doesn't care about equality and is not trying to constructively change things for the better for everyone. It only hurts feminists as a whole and it frankly makes them fit their stereotypes. 

See below.

DonFerrari said:
SpokenTruth said:

Again, the ad could be better but it's only a product of the issue.  Akin to attacking the messenger (and message) rather than the underlying problem itself.

Should ads be produced that teach women how to prevent dangerous circumstances?  Damn good idea.  Should laws be enacted with stricter punishments for rape and false rape accusations?  Even better idea.

But if we don't understand why these kinds of ads (even these poor ones) are made in the first place, we are missing the bigger issue.  If we fight over the video, we ignore the real problem.  This is our problem.  We immediately wonder why they are attacking all of us men.  We wonder why they are accusing us of possibly being rapists just because we look, flirt or whistle.  We wonder why they see us as doing wrong just for being men.  When what we really should be wondering is why this kind of ad was needed in the first place. 

We look at ourselves individually and take umbrage for the accusation (granted every group does this regardless of association...race, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc...).  But we fail to look at ourselves as a collective sex.  We fail to ask ourselves as men if we are really doing all we can to protect and prevent ourselves (as a group, not individually) from harming women.  It's a tough thing to reflect on because we'd rather put that repsonsibility elsewhere.

The reason for the ads are exageration of the issues since the ad itself doesn't base itself on reality at least not our reality.

I'm responding to you both since you both made similar points.

As you'll note, I already stated several times that this particular video isn't that great.  My statements were regarding the movement and support/awareness videos in general and immediately you both began attacking this lone video.  Go back to what I said about looking at ourselves as a collective and why support/awareness ads are needed in the first place.  

o_O.Q said:

what would you suggest we do to make women safer?

It takes a collective attitude to re-educate oursleves about us and women.   As I've said before, it wasn't that long ago that hitting a women was simply considered part of society and many still think it is.  You may know it's wrong but collectively we still have vestiges of past sexism practices.  Father to son education is good (few men actually teach their sons how to repsect women...especially if they see dad 'putting her in her place' every now and then).   Society has to look at the patriarchy and consider the implications it enables.  Men hold the overhwleming majority of power in all aspects of life and as we all know (or should know) that rape is a show of force and power, not about lust and sex.  Again, this is a perspective men don't usually acknowledge because it's difficult to see the problem when it doesn't affect you and because we're too egotistical, prideful and cowardly to admit the issues.

You were saying the reason for a video like these, not video against abuse agaisnt woman. If we are talking about the first it doesn't existe, if about the second I agree.

Yes we know rape is a show of force and power on "normal" men, but for the ones that have psychological issues it's lust and sex more than the first... the first we can correct with education, the second we can't because it's an illness.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Nem on 14 January 2016

This is a distasteful generalization. This is flat out a biased lie.

Gets herself drunk with friends... things get handsy... oh poor girl... how did she get herself in this situation? Can't she drink herself into a stupor, probably behave sexually and teasing and then get touched by other drunk people?Is she the only one allowed to misbehave/make a mistake? WTF is this? Are you serious?

Beeing called a "slut" "bitch" and so on? Probably more likely to happen by her female friends than men. Men will only do that if they actually behave that way.

And honestly this is so unrealistic and complete opposite. My experience has been that women are way bossier, abusive and more opressive than men. And then play this victim game to get their way.

Rape? If its true its deplorable indeed, but this woman that portrays herself as a drunken stupor keeps acting like a drunken stupor... perhaps she should behave in a matter that doesnt demean herself so no one would get funny ideas? Maybe watch who she hangs out with?
Marital disagreements are normal aswell. Hitting isn't though. If he hits you, you should make clear you will leave him. But its not like this doesn't happen the other way around though. More common is the case of abusive wives who won't let their husbands hang out with their friends or have their own activities.

Distasteful, disgusting. I will never give them the preferencial treatment they want. They are not victims. I will treat them as normal human beeings. This goes for all minorities, wich isnt even the case of women, though they love to behave like they are.
Thankfully, not all behave in this way.

The person portrayed in this video is far from a victim, except for the rape claim, that is inexcusable, even if she could just watch her company better. The husband and marital problem things, they are more complex than that, and those things don't happen without a reason. There are no innocent sides. If it is indeed the case, dump him. Easy. Just cause on guy is abusive doesnt mean they all are. Oh... and learn to choose better. Seems to be the classic case of not knowing who to hang out with. Daddy gave you a brain. Use it.



o_O.Q on 14 January 2016
A_C_E said:
o_O.Q said:

"I'm simply pointing out that not ALL men produce more testosterone than ALL women."

i feel the need to ask thiis again but you are aware of the purpose of testosterone and why we call it the male sex hormone right?

What I stated was fact. Just because you can't accept a fact doesn't give you the need to put forth a red herring fallacy. If i did or didn't know why we call testosterone a male sex hormone it would not change the fact that not all men produce more testosterone than all women.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" Also, we keep jumping back and forth between physiology and psychology"

they are both linked anyway so doesn't matter

Agreed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"lol but you are missing the point... which is that a larger concentration produces a significantly larger effect"

"Which I am not arguing against..."

" I said it is not dependent on the amount. "

I understand (obviously) that a larger concentration produces a larger effect, but the amount of testosterone does not dictate whether a man is a man, just heavily influences the procedural building blocks. Also, I said in full, "I did not state that a man can still be a man without testosterone, I said it is not dependent on the amount." Your fire analogy was not one to show the effects of testosterone physically but instead was used to describe what would happen mentally; in that more aggression would ensue the more testosterone was available. What you just did was improperly quote me without offering any context to what I was responding to in the original claim. That is the definition of misrepresentation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"ut now we are on the topic of physiology where I have already stated that men and women aren't exactly the same"

testosterone and its effects are also a part of physiology 

...agreed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" The video was made by someone with overly feministic views"

that's ironic coming from a guy desperately trying to prove that men and women are almost the same and failing miserably

One thing I am failing miserably at is getting you to understand that I am technically agreeing with you while also pointing out that generalizations only lead to mixed results hence why it would be better to look at an individual as an individual, not a man or a woman. Now I am of course speaking on social terms here. But what you do in these situations is claim that I don't know that women on average produce more estrogen and that men on average produce more testosterone, do you even know the effects of testosterone...these silly questions lead to nowhere.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" you're using it to prove that men are psychologically different?"

no i'm just saying that the vieo was made with the understanding that men and women are different with regards to their behavior

Your saying the video was made with the understanding that men and women are different with regards to their behavior? Does that make it true? I don't care what the video says first of all, it doesn't change what is. Second of all, I was under the impression that the video simply didn't want to acknowledge that the average male doesn't act like their portrayal of men, or boys if you will.

 

" it would not change the fact that not all men produce more testosterone than all women."

look the point i was making here is that if someone is producing less testosterone than a woman then they will not develope into a man because the male sex hormone is needed for a man to develope physiologically

what evidence do you have that there are men that exist with less testosterone than women because this completely goes against what we know about biology?

 

"the amount of testosterone does not dictate whether a man is a man"

so since women have testosterone too why don't they develop the same way as men? please explain this one for me

 

"Your fire analogy was not one to show the effects of testosterone physically but instead was used to describe what would happen mentally"

as i said and you agreed, physiology and psychology are linked

yes it causes more aggression as a psychological effect but it also causes physiological effects... as i've been saying over and over again there is no dividing line between both

 

"do you even know the effects of testosterone"

i have to ask the question because from your claims its obvious that you don't know how these things work and therefore before you try to speak on them it would be best to go and read up on them

 

" why it would be better to look at an individual as an individual"

ironically it is the beliefs you are pushing that are grounded in a desire to erase individuality, but for some reason you can't see it



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o_O.Q on 14 January 2016
SpokenTruth said:
Aeolus451 said:
SpokenTruth said:

Again, the ad could be better but it's only a product of the issue.  Akin to attacking the messenger (and message) rather than the underlying problem itself.

Should ads be produced that teach women how to prevent dangerous circumstances?  Damn good idea.  Should laws be enacted with stricter punishments for rape and false rape accusations?  Even better idea.

But if we don't understand why these kinds of ads (even these poor ones) are made in the first place, we are missing the bigger issue.  If we fight over the video, we ignore the real problem.  This is our problem.  We immediately wonder why they are attacking all of us men.  We wonder why they are accusing us of possibly being rapists just because we look, flirt or whistle.  We wonder why they see us as doing wrong just for being men.  When what we really should be wondering is why this kind of ad was needed in the first place. 

We look at ourselves individually and take umbrage for the accusation (granted every group does this regardless of association...race, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc...).  But we fail to look at ourselves as a collective sex.  We fail to ask ourselves as men if we are really doing all we can to protect and prevent ourselves (as a group, not individually) from harming women.  It's a tough thing to reflect on because we'd rather put that repsonsibility elsewhere.

This type of video/ad was not needed in the first place because it's misguided or tells a flawed message on every level. In other words, no one should take it seriously because it's most likely created by a radicalized feminist that doesn't care about equality and is not trying to constructively change things for the better for everyone. It only hurts feminists as a whole and it frankly makes them fit their stereotypes. 

See below.

DonFerrari said:
SpokenTruth said:

Again, the ad could be better but it's only a product of the issue.  Akin to attacking the messenger (and message) rather than the underlying problem itself.

Should ads be produced that teach women how to prevent dangerous circumstances?  Damn good idea.  Should laws be enacted with stricter punishments for rape and false rape accusations?  Even better idea.

But if we don't understand why these kinds of ads (even these poor ones) are made in the first place, we are missing the bigger issue.  If we fight over the video, we ignore the real problem.  This is our problem.  We immediately wonder why they are attacking all of us men.  We wonder why they are accusing us of possibly being rapists just because we look, flirt or whistle.  We wonder why they see us as doing wrong just for being men.  When what we really should be wondering is why this kind of ad was needed in the first place. 

We look at ourselves individually and take umbrage for the accusation (granted every group does this regardless of association...race, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc...).  But we fail to look at ourselves as a collective sex.  We fail to ask ourselves as men if we are really doing all we can to protect and prevent ourselves (as a group, not individually) from harming women.  It's a tough thing to reflect on because we'd rather put that repsonsibility elsewhere.

The reason for the ads are exageration of the issues since the ad itself doesn't base itself on reality at least not our reality.

I'm responding to you both since you both made similar points.

As you'll note, I already stated several times that this particular video isn't that great.  My statements were regarding the movement and support/awareness videos in general and immediately you both began attacking this lone video.  Go back to what I said about looking at ourselves as a collective and why support/awareness ads are needed in the first place.  

 

 

o_O.Q said:

what would you suggest we do to make women safer?

It takes a collective attitude to re-educate oursleves about us and women.   As I've said before, it wasn't that long ago that hitting a women was simply considered part of society and many still think it is.  You may know it's wrong but collectively we still have vestiges of past sexism practices.  Father to son education is good (few men actually teach their sons how to repsect women...especially if they see dad 'putting her in her place' every now and then).   Society has to look at the patriarchy and consider the implications it enables.  Men hold the overhwleming majority of power in all aspects of life and as we all know (or should know) that rape is a show of force and power, not about lust and sex.  Again, this is a perspective men don't usually acknowledge because it's difficult to see the problem when it doesn't affect you and because we're too egotistical, prideful and cowardly to admit the issues.

 

"It takes a collective attitude to re-educate oursleves about us and women. "


the problem here is that there are people that for various reasons do not care about the expectations of society and do not care about the wellbeing of others... these people will always exist and they are generally the people that commit crimes such as rape

how is eduation going to stop these people from raping?

this is exactly why people say that women should look into using more safety precautions and even perhaps carrying weapons on them

 

"few men actually teach their sons how to repsect women"

 

can you elaborate on this?

 

"that rape is a show of force and power"

i don't understand how the motivations of rape are relevant here... if i murder someone to steal their cash, people won't go "oh he just needed the money let him go free"... no if i'm caught then i will be imprisoned or killed

 

with regards to rape, if a rapist is caught, people don't go "oh he was trying to fight feelings of inadequacy and needed a boost to his confidence so take pity on him" no he is instantly condemned and imprisoned for a period of time and also placed on a watchlist for the rest of his life as a sex offender

 

you seem to be implying throughout this post that we are lenient on rapists because of the power structure of society and that is completely false

 

"Men hold the overhwleming majority of power in all aspects of life and as we all know (or should know) that rape is a show of force and power"

 

are you trying to say that if power is taken away from men that a natural result with be that less rapes will occur?

i'm just speculating here because you didn't make a clear enough connection 


"this is a perspective men don't usually acknowledge because it's difficult to see the problem "

 

sorry this may be a lack of comprehension on my part but can you identify which problem you are speaking of here? is the problem you are speaking of rape? or the power structure of society?



Aeolus451 on 14 January 2016
SpokenTruth said:
Aeolus451 said:
SpokenTruth said:

Again, the ad could be better but it's only a product of the issue.  Akin to attacking the messenger (and message) rather than the underlying problem itself.

Should ads be produced that teach women how to prevent dangerous circumstances?  Damn good idea.  Should laws be enacted with stricter punishments for rape and false rape accusations?  Even better idea.

But if we don't understand why these kinds of ads (even these poor ones) are made in the first place, we are missing the bigger issue.  If we fight over the video, we ignore the real problem.  This is our problem.  We immediately wonder why they are attacking all of us men.  We wonder why they are accusing us of possibly being rapists just because we look, flirt or whistle.  We wonder why they see us as doing wrong just for being men.  When what we really should be wondering is why this kind of ad was needed in the first place. 

We look at ourselves individually and take umbrage for the accusation (granted every group does this regardless of association...race, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc...).  But we fail to look at ourselves as a collective sex.  We fail to ask ourselves as men if we are really doing all we can to protect and prevent ourselves (as a group, not individually) from harming women.  It's a tough thing to reflect on because we'd rather put that repsonsibility elsewhere.

This type of video/ad was not needed in the first place because it's misguided or tells a flawed message on every level. In other words, no one should take it seriously because it's most likely created by a radicalized feminist that doesn't care about equality and is not trying to constructively change things for the better for everyone. It only hurts feminists as a whole and it frankly makes them fit their stereotypes. 

 

I'm responding to you both since you both made similar points.

As you'll note, I already stated several times that this particular video isn't that great.  My statements were regarding the movement and support/awareness videos in general and immediately you both began attacking this lone video.  Go back to what I said about looking at ourselves as a collective and why support/awareness ads are needed in the first place.  

 

 

 

 

You were talking about this vid and why vids like it are needed. I was also talking about this vids and vids like it. This vid is not a support ad or an awareness ad.  This whole discussion from page 1 to here has been about that misguided vid created by a radicalized femnist that doesn't understand men at all. Do you see the distiction between an awareness vid and this blight upon humanity?

What's actually needed is extremely harsh punishments for sex offenders and decent parenting (parents teaching their kids how to behave and be safe in a dangerous world) in 1st world countries. Men do not need to be re-educated by feminazis. I'm all for equality between the sexes but I don't care for radicalized femnists or their misguided ideas. 



bdbdbd on 14 January 2016
SpokenTruth said:

The green movement?  As in the environmental movement?  For one, that too has no central organization or leadership.  It's just that, a movement.  A concept adopted by individuals.  And saying "they" silently accept any act of terrorism in the west makes me wonder if we're thinking of two different things. 

Hang on, do you mean the Green political movement in Iran several years ago? 



DonFerrari, I'll reply back soon.  Short on time at the moment.

 

You're trolling aren't you? Have you been living in a barrel, or how come you fail to recognise all the Green parties around the world? For example the EU parliament has 50 Greens/EFA meps.

And yes, they do silently accept the acts of terrorism.

Moderated - Miguel_Zorro



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

naruball on 14 January 2016
SpokenTruth said:

  Why do we men want to treat rape so differently?  Would straight men feel the same if they were drunkenly voilated by another man?

Just wanted to say, excellent point.

I had a friend who got stoned with a bunch a friends and then one of them (female) tried to have sex with him when he was clearly almost completely out of it and couldn't even stand straight. He got really upset and ever since I heard that, I didn't speak to her again. It's just wrong. Period.





bdbdbd on 14 January 2016
A_C_E said:

My claim is that psychology is not bound by what sex you are, literally that simple. How is this overlapping my points?

 

Not on an individual level (as in, there's a huge overlap), but as a group it does. I can tell you that men are taller than women, which did not prevent me from getting a wife taller than I am. Men are better in sports than women, but I know for sure I get my ass kicked by female athletes.

Psychology has more to do with behaviour leading to survival of the offspring and reproducing, than moral or ideology.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.