Forums - Music Discussion - Do you consider METAL, techno, screamo, etc music or just entertainment?

Music or just entertainment

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padib said:

I meant that opinions would revolve around the question "What defines...". Were you intending on lecturing me?

The topic is set to "Do you consider METAL, techno, screamo, etc music or just entertainment?", how people choose to answer is entirely up to them, so long as they keep it civil, and both you and Toxy are failing to do that, if you consider that a lecture then so be it.

I would prefer however, that you dropped the discussion with each other entirely, as you have both already demonstrated that you are unwilling to let differing opinions pass.



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Edit - removed my intitial comment to reflect Tachikoma's request.




Tachikoma said:

The topic is set to "Do you consider METAL, techno, screamo, etc music or just entertainment?", how people choose to answer is entirely up to them, so long as they keep it civil, and both you and Toxy are failing to do that, if you consider that a lecture then so be it.

I would prefer however, that you dropped the discussion with each other entirely, as you have both already demonstrated that you are unwilling to let differing opinions pass.

Okay, noted. I shall put this behind me.



Tachikoma said:
padib said:

I meant that opinions would revolve around the question "What defines...". Were you intending on lecturing me?

The topic is set to "Do you consider METAL, techno, screamo, etc music or just entertainment?", how people choose to answer is entirely up to them, so long as they keep it civil, and both you and Toxy are failing to do that, if you consider that a lecture then so be it.

I would prefer however, that you dropped the discussion with each other entirely, as you have both already demonstrated that you are unwilling to let differing opinions pass.

I considered that when you're correcting my use of terms when the meaning is clear, you're lecturing me:

Tachikoma said:

padib said:

The opinion ultimately is: "What defines music and what fits into that definition" and again it is a vaild topic.

And it's a question not an opinion.

I am willing to let differing opinions pass, so long as it's done respectfully.

But anyway I will drop it for the sake of all of us now getting along.



padib said:

I am willing to let differing opinions pass, so long as it's done respectfully.

But anyway I will drop it for the sake of all of us now getting along.

The dictionary definition of music stems from a time when the range of music was substantially limited, using such definitions to prove or disprove the categorization of what does and does not classify as music is shortsighted unless you dig in to the wording used.

If we expand upon a key point in the very defition you posted.

"1.vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion."

We see that a large portion of what categorizes vocal, insutrumental of combined sounds as "music" is the listeners interpretation, and listeners the world over have categorically considered metal, techno, sceamo and every other genre, as "music", because those that willingly produce tracks of those genres, and those that buy the completed tracks either digitally or on cd, find an inherant beauty and expression of emotion in the recording.

 Also, the way you are reacting to the notion of being lectured is worrying, as you seem blind to the realization that you have been lecturing others in this very thread.




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Tachikoma said:
padib said:

I am willing to let differing opinions pass, so long as it's done respectfully.

But anyway I will drop it for the sake of all of us now getting along.

The dictionary definition of music stems from a time when the range of music was substantially limited, using such definitions to prove or disprove the categorization of what does and does not classify as music is shortsighted unless you dig in to the wording used.

If we expand upon a key point in the very defition you posted.

"1.vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion."

We see that a large portion of what categorizes vocal, insutrumental of combined sounds as "music" is the listeners interpretation, and listeners the world over have categorically considered metal, techno, sceamo and every other genre, as "music", because those that willingly produce tracks of those genres, and those that buy the completed tracks either digitally or on cd, find an inherant beauty and expression of emotion in the recording.

 Also, the way you are reacting to the notion of being lectured is worrying, as you seem blind to the realization that you have been lecturing others in this very thread.

I'm glad we have reached a point where we can admit that definitions, in and of themselves, can fall short of giving a term its full meaning. I agree.

The counter-argument I'll offer to the idea that selling tracks indicates whether something is music or not is that, one could produce very nice music and keep it to themselves, like say Eric Clapton or _insert_artist_name_here_ could even though they probably won't. It's also possible that someone produce something so bad that people might buy it just for the kick. So selling records does not certify the existence of music. Similarly, people buy discs of non-music as well, including cds of sounds of water and bird sounds. Is that music? Though not created by a human, it's captured by one, much like a photograph could be considered artistry, and at the same time could be considered not.

I'm going to ignore italic so we can just continue in harmony. If you want me to explain you can get in touch with me by PM.



Toxy said:
CladInShadows said:

As a fan of metal, I think screams and growls have more in common with percussive instruments than traditional singing. If the growls follow a rhythm, goes with what the other instruments are playing, and are pleasing to the ear of the listener, it's absolutely music.


I agree kind sir. However, I am afraid your words will fall on deaf ears. Tread with caution.

I think I'll survive.  Music for me is very personal, and I've learned that I don't need to defend or justify my love of metal.  I've been listening to metal for at least 25 years and have heard every counter-argument in the book.

Besides, and I think you'd probably disagree here, but I think padib has made some valid points and has presented his argument fairly, for the most part.



padib said:

I am not saying that all screamo music is bad...

1. I don't believe I implied that. But that being said, there are good examples and bad examples of just about every genre of music out there. I have heard some shitty shitty metal in my day, let me tell ya.

2. I'm not a fan of screamo in any way, so I'll take your word for it. My passion is metal, and that's all I'm qualified to speak on.

Anyways, I can definitely see where you're coming from in this argument.  Taken on its own, screams do not sound like what most would consider music. Especially in that video you posted because it's just random screaming. I'm sure if you isolate some bass-lines from some music, it would be hard to see the music in that as well.  I think metal, much more so than many other genres, is about the whole sound. It's how the vocals, guitars, drums, and any other instrumental arrangements come together to form music. Take one instrument out and isolate it, and it sounds far removed from the whole. I won't directly compare it with classical music, but some parallels can be drawn.

So yeah, it's hard to claim that random growling alone is music, but pull all the pieces together and it gets harder to deny the musicality.



CladInShadows said:

padib said:

I am not saying that all screamo music is bad...

1. I don't believe I implied that. But that being said, there are good examples and bad examples of just about every genre of music out there. I have heard some shitty shitty metal in my day, let me tell ya.

2. I'm not a fan of screamo in any way, so I'll take your word for it. My passion is metal, and that's all I'm qualified to speak on.

Anyways, I can definitely see where you're coming from in this argument.  Taken on its own, screams do not sound like what most would consider music. Especially in that video you posted because it's just random screaming. I'm sure if you isolate some bass-lines from some music, it would be hard to see the music in that as well.  I think metal, much more so than many other genres, is about the whole sound. It's how the vocals, guitars, drums, and any other instrumental arrangements come together to form music. Take one instrument out and isolate it, and it sounds far removed from the whole. I won't directly compare it with classical music, but some parallels can be drawn.

So yeah, it's hard to claim that random growling alone is music, but pull all the pieces together and it gets harder to deny the musicality.

I'm glad we can meet in the middle here. The clip of the guy screaming was there to convey an idea, especially to help us define what in our minds is, and what is not music. Though it's clear to many people here that the clip is not music, who's to say that someday a genre will not emerge where people express themselves by creating non-music for people to listen to, as a form of countering conformity? Put a cacophonic base run and some horrible percussion-like sounds and you have some form of creation. Also, some genres of music exploit noise and dissonance in order to create some form of musical expression. Is it not music though it lacks harmony in a few segments? Just an example: 


And then there's the other side of the coin. Music isn't exclusively defined by the existence of an arrangement. I could hum a new melody accapella, it would still be music.

All in all the question is very fair.



padib said:
CladInShadows said:

padib said:

I am not saying that all screamo music is bad...

1. I don't believe I implied that. But that being said, there are good examples and bad examples of just about every genre of music out there. I have heard some shitty shitty metal in my day, let me tell ya.

2. I'm not a fan of screamo in any way, so I'll take your word for it. My passion is metal, and that's all I'm qualified to speak on.

Anyways, I can definitely see where you're coming from in this argument.  Taken on its own, screams do not sound like what most would consider music. Especially in that video you posted because it's just random screaming. I'm sure if you isolate some bass-lines from some music, it would be hard to see the music in that as well.  I think metal, much more so than many other genres, is about the whole sound. It's how the vocals, guitars, drums, and any other instrumental arrangements come together to form music. Take one instrument out and isolate it, and it sounds far removed from the whole. I won't directly compare it with classical music, but some parallels can be drawn.

So yeah, it's hard to claim that random growling alone is music, but pull all the pieces together and it gets harder to deny the musicality.

I'm glad we can meet in the middle here. The clip of the guy screaming was there to convey an idea, especially to help us define what in our minds is, and what is not music. Though it's clear to many people here that the clip is not music, who's to say that someday a genre will not emerge where people express themselves by creating non-music for people to listen to, as a form of countering conformity? Put a cacophonic base run and some horrible percussion-like sounds and you have some form of creation. Also, some genres of music exploit noise and dissonance in order to create some form of musical expression. Is it not music though it lacks harmony in a few segments? Just an example: 


And then there's the other side of the coin. Music isn't exclusively defined by the existence of an arrangement. I could hum a new melody accapella, it would still be music.

All in all the question is very fair.

Music isn't exclusively defined in black and white, anyways. Which is why this thread exists. What is music and (especially) what is considered GOOD music varies from person to person, and from culture to culture.  Which is why music that originates from Ireland, Africa, Sweden, India, and Compton will all vary greatly.  Sure, there's a lot of cross contamination, but certain conditions and political climates will foster different music in different parts of the world. 

Since I know that a good portion of the population would scoff at the music I listen to and question its musical relevance, I have come to accept that even though there's a lot of styles out there that I strongly dislike (rap comes to mind), I can't deny that millions/billions of people love it and absolutely consider it music. I don't have the right to say it is or isn't music.