Forums - Sony Discussion - What Would Be Your Reaction If Sony Announced "True" PS3 Backwards Compatibility?

Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

Its not that simple. Let me complicated it for you.

I don't have specs, but I don't need those I have logic.

A common misconception of CPU's is the correlation between power and speed (clock rate). Clock rate only increases power, if the faster cpu executes more instructions in the same amount of time as the slower one. This is hard because complex instructions typically take more time.

The PS3 cpu was not only fast, but able to run complex instructions fast cause of proprietary shit or something.

Point is, trying to emulate that is going to take a cpu that is basically just as fast or at least specialized, a near impossible task when also trying to change the architecture, decent emulation of PS3 games would need a top tier PC, in a console its a pipe dream.

However, emulation is not the only way for backwards compatibility, XB1's backwards compatibility for instance, is not emulation.

PS3 was the last in a long line of games consoles to feature bespoke, 'exotic' hardware - in this case, the Cell processor with its ultra-fast satellite co-processors - the SPUs. The general direction of hardware design in the industry has moved away from those ideas - the SPU set-up is almost completely alien to the way CPUs are made these days - so while the PS4's processing cores are relatively capable, emulating the SPUs in real-time would be a colossal undertaking from an engineering perspective. In part, this explains why Sony undertook cloud streaming with PlayStation Now - getting that to work was challenging enough, but I suspect it's a more straightforward task than running six 3.2GHz SPUs on a low-power 1.6GHz x86 cluster.

 

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-06-19-dont-hold-your-breath-for-ps4-backwards-compatibility



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Tachikoma said:
rolltide101x said:

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

the PS3 GPU was a piece of shit frankly, it's the CPU that did most of the work, as it was adaptable enough to handle GPU instructions as well as CPU.

Read my above post.

I agree with that but there is no way the PS4 GPU could emulate the PS3 GPU. It just is not a large enough jump over it. But the PS3 CPU would be the main problem as the PS4 CPU is basically equal to the it in terms of raw capability. 

 

Also on your last post the small amount of ram was the PS3s biggest flaw



ill tell you one thing. it will give me a reason to turn on my PS4 which has been dust magnet most of this year




 

 

                     

daredevil.shark said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

Its not that simple. Let me complicated it for you.

I don't have specs, but I don't need those I have logic.

A common misconception of CPU's is the correlation between power and speed (clock rate). Clock rate only increases power, if the faster cpu executes more instructions in the same amount of time as the slower one. This is hard because complex instructions typically take more time.

The PS3 cpu was not only fast, but able to run complex instructions fast cause of proprietary shit or something.

Point is, trying to emulate that is going to take a cpu that is basically just as fast or at least specialized, a near impossible task when also trying to change the architecture, decent emulation of PS3 games would need a top tier PC, in a console its a pipe dream.

However, emulation is not the only way for backwards compatibility, XB1's backwards compatibility for instance, is not emulation.

PS3 was the last in a long line of games consoles to feature bespoke, 'exotic' hardware - in this case, the Cell processor with its ultra-fast satellite co-processors - the SPUs. The general direction of hardware design in the industry has moved away from those ideas - the SPU set-up is almost completely alien to the way CPUs are made these days - so while the PS4's processing cores are relatively capable, emulating the SPUs in real-time would be a colossal undertaking from an engineering perspective. In part, this explains why Sony undertook cloud streaming with PlayStation Now - getting that to work was challenging enough, but I suspect it's a more straightforward task than running six 3.2GHz SPUs on a low-power 1.6GHz x86 cluster.

 

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-06-19-dont-hold-your-breath-for-ps4-backwards-compatibility

I'm not talking about emulating it on PS4, I'm talking about emulating it in general.

('_ ') don't throw some source at me like I don't understand. Bolding the words "Exotic", "Ultrafast", or "Collasal Undertaking" is just fluff

All you need to know is 6 3.2 GHZ to 1.6 GHZ x86 cluster. Different instruction sets means the disparity is a lot worse then just a "Generational Gap"

Moore's Law is a myth so even getting 3.2 GHz in normal consumer chips is implausible.

 

However, BC compatibility can be acheived via the MS method.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

I really wouldn't care. I bought my PS4 to play PS4 games.

For the record, my PS3 is full BC, and I only played PS3 games on it.



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rolltide101x said:
JustBeingReal said:
Getting PS3 games to run on PS4 isn't impossible, it's just a very complicated process and would require a fair amount of work.

1st of all you have to deal with the core issues that the PPC in PS3 uses RISC assembly language and the SPEs use it's own custom assembly language which is called ISA.
The code that runs on both of those processors in PS3 would need to be re-written or recognized as X86 on PS4.

PS3's SPE code could be offloaded to PS4's GPU in Backwards Compatibility, leaving a substantial amount of overhead CPU available for any tasks that need to deal with PowerPC processes.
PS4's GPU is substantially more powerful than the RSX.

Overall Sony could very likely write an emulation environment, basically a virtual PS3 to run on PS4's SOC.
Emulation handled in this way isn't the only possibility, Sony could re-write each game that users request, place a patch on servers for users to download when they're connected to the internet, though this is likely the more time consuming possibility.
I don't see why The ICE Team or some other development team that is familiar with PS3 and PS4 hardware, OS and APIs in both systems couldn't make a truly virtual PS3 that can run on PS4, it all just depends on whether Sony wants to make this work or provide the resources to make it happen.

Backwards Compatibility doesn't get in the way of PS Now, because the whole idea of PSNow is to be used as a rental service for people that don't own all of the games in the PS3's library or even for people that never owned a PS3 in the first place.

BC could allow Sony to sell more PS3 games, if people want a superior experience then the remasters and remakes will also sell, so really it's all money for Sony.

As for my reaction, I'd be impressed that Sony were willing to put the resources into this, though it's not impossible despite what some claim about this.

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.



JustBeingReal said:

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.

You missed the boat man.... Emulating the PS3 GPU mean emulating the PS3 architecture. The PS4 GPU COULD NOT EMULATE the PS3 GPU in the PS3's native language.....



JustBeingReal said:
rolltide101x said:
JustBeingReal said:
Getting PS3 games to run on PS4 isn't impossible, it's just a very complicated process and would require a fair amount of work.

1st of all you have to deal with the core issues that the PPC in PS3 uses RISC assembly language and the SPEs use it's own custom assembly language which is called ISA.
The code that runs on both of those processors in PS3 would need to be re-written or recognized as X86 on PS4.

PS3's SPE code could be offloaded to PS4's GPU in Backwards Compatibility, leaving a substantial amount of overhead CPU available for any tasks that need to deal with PowerPC processes.
PS4's GPU is substantially more powerful than the RSX.

Overall Sony could very likely write an emulation environment, basically a virtual PS3 to run on PS4's SOC.
Emulation handled in this way isn't the only possibility, Sony could re-write each game that users request, place a patch on servers for users to download when they're connected to the internet, though this is likely the more time consuming possibility.
I don't see why The ICE Team or some other development team that is familiar with PS3 and PS4 hardware, OS and APIs in both systems couldn't make a truly virtual PS3 that can run on PS4, it all just depends on whether Sony wants to make this work or provide the resources to make it happen.

Backwards Compatibility doesn't get in the way of PS Now, because the whole idea of PSNow is to be used as a rental service for people that don't own all of the games in the PS3's library or even for people that never owned a PS3 in the first place.

BC could allow Sony to sell more PS3 games, if people want a superior experience then the remasters and remakes will also sell, so really it's all money for Sony.

As for my reaction, I'd be impressed that Sony were willing to put the resources into this, though it's not impossible despite what some claim about this.

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.

XB1 does not emulate the 360, it just downloads 360 ports.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

I would sell my PS3 and get me a PS4.
But that won't happen.



rolltide101x said:
JustBeingReal said:

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.

You missed the boat man.... Emulating the PS3 GPU mean emulating the PS3 architecture. The PS4 GPU COULD NOT EMULATE the PS3 GPU in the PS3's native language.....


No I didn't miss anything, I understand the issues fully here, through extensive research on the subject.

You're not giving any arguments that support your stance on this subject, just insisting you're right, because you're right, it's circular non-logic.

As I said before the RSX is a cut down 7800 GTX, this is a standard NVidia PC GPU, which is substantially weaker than what's in PS4, emulating an NVidia GPU, with a substantially more powerful AMD one isn't hard to do, the tech may be somewhat different, but it's not massively exotic, if anything it's nothing more than a nusance issue, one that can be solved very easily, hell the original XBox had an Nvidia GPU, yet 360 had an ATI one, 360 could still run the OG XBox games when they were patched.

PS4 doesn't need to run PS3 games in their native language on PS4, it only needs to translate RISC and ISA code into X86 and as I said before that solves the language problem.

The next issue is that PS3's Cell processor is a mash up of a CPU and Floating Point hardware, the Floating Point math can be handled by PS4's GPU.

As for the PowerPC tech, 360 has 3X the cores compared to PS3, so PS4 has ample CPU hardware to deal with this side of the technical issues.

 

I've explained every area here, PS4 can be made to run a virtual PS3 on it's hardware and thus play PS3 games, it only needs for Sony to set up a team of programmers to solve these technical issues and they could definitely get PS3 games up and running well on PS4. You're not giving any technical explanations for why this cannot be done, I on the other hand have given a technical explanation of how it's definitely achievable.