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Forums - Sony Discussion - What Would Be Your Reaction If Sony Announced "True" PS3 Backwards Compatibility?

JustBeingReal on 17 October 2015
rolltide101x said:
JustBeingReal said:
Getting PS3 games to run on PS4 isn't impossible, it's just a very complicated process and would require a fair amount of work.

1st of all you have to deal with the core issues that the PPC in PS3 uses RISC assembly language and the SPEs use it's own custom assembly language which is called ISA.
The code that runs on both of those processors in PS3 would need to be re-written or recognized as X86 on PS4.

PS3's SPE code could be offloaded to PS4's GPU in Backwards Compatibility, leaving a substantial amount of overhead CPU available for any tasks that need to deal with PowerPC processes.
PS4's GPU is substantially more powerful than the RSX.

Overall Sony could very likely write an emulation environment, basically a virtual PS3 to run on PS4's SOC.
Emulation handled in this way isn't the only possibility, Sony could re-write each game that users request, place a patch on servers for users to download when they're connected to the internet, though this is likely the more time consuming possibility.
I don't see why The ICE Team or some other development team that is familiar with PS3 and PS4 hardware, OS and APIs in both systems couldn't make a truly virtual PS3 that can run on PS4, it all just depends on whether Sony wants to make this work or provide the resources to make it happen.

Backwards Compatibility doesn't get in the way of PS Now, because the whole idea of PSNow is to be used as a rental service for people that don't own all of the games in the PS3's library or even for people that never owned a PS3 in the first place.

BC could allow Sony to sell more PS3 games, if people want a superior experience then the remasters and remakes will also sell, so really it's all money for Sony.

As for my reaction, I'd be impressed that Sony were willing to put the resources into this, though it's not impossible despite what some claim about this.

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.



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rolltide101x on 17 October 2015
JustBeingReal said:

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.

You missed the boat man.... Emulating the PS3 GPU mean emulating the PS3 architecture. The PS4 GPU COULD NOT EMULATE the PS3 GPU in the PS3's native language.....



Dr.Henry_Killinger on 17 October 2015
JustBeingReal said:
rolltide101x said:
JustBeingReal said:
Getting PS3 games to run on PS4 isn't impossible, it's just a very complicated process and would require a fair amount of work.

1st of all you have to deal with the core issues that the PPC in PS3 uses RISC assembly language and the SPEs use it's own custom assembly language which is called ISA.
The code that runs on both of those processors in PS3 would need to be re-written or recognized as X86 on PS4.

PS3's SPE code could be offloaded to PS4's GPU in Backwards Compatibility, leaving a substantial amount of overhead CPU available for any tasks that need to deal with PowerPC processes.
PS4's GPU is substantially more powerful than the RSX.

Overall Sony could very likely write an emulation environment, basically a virtual PS3 to run on PS4's SOC.
Emulation handled in this way isn't the only possibility, Sony could re-write each game that users request, place a patch on servers for users to download when they're connected to the internet, though this is likely the more time consuming possibility.
I don't see why The ICE Team or some other development team that is familiar with PS3 and PS4 hardware, OS and APIs in both systems couldn't make a truly virtual PS3 that can run on PS4, it all just depends on whether Sony wants to make this work or provide the resources to make it happen.

Backwards Compatibility doesn't get in the way of PS Now, because the whole idea of PSNow is to be used as a rental service for people that don't own all of the games in the PS3's library or even for people that never owned a PS3 in the first place.

BC could allow Sony to sell more PS3 games, if people want a superior experience then the remasters and remakes will also sell, so really it's all money for Sony.

As for my reaction, I'd be impressed that Sony were willing to put the resources into this, though it's not impossible despite what some claim about this.

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.

XB1 does not emulate the 360, it just downloads 360 ports.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

SnowPrince on 17 October 2015

I would sell my PS3 and get me a PS4.
But that won't happen.



JustBeingReal on 17 October 2015
rolltide101x said:
JustBeingReal said:

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.

You missed the boat man.... Emulating the PS3 GPU mean emulating the PS3 architecture. The PS4 GPU COULD NOT EMULATE the PS3 GPU in the PS3's native language.....


No I didn't miss anything, I understand the issues fully here, through extensive research on the subject.

You're not giving any arguments that support your stance on this subject, just insisting you're right, because you're right, it's circular non-logic.

As I said before the RSX is a cut down 7800 GTX, this is a standard NVidia PC GPU, which is substantially weaker than what's in PS4, emulating an NVidia GPU, with a substantially more powerful AMD one isn't hard to do, the tech may be somewhat different, but it's not massively exotic, if anything it's nothing more than a nusance issue, one that can be solved very easily, hell the original XBox had an Nvidia GPU, yet 360 had an ATI one, 360 could still run the OG XBox games when they were patched.

PS4 doesn't need to run PS3 games in their native language on PS4, it only needs to translate RISC and ISA code into X86 and as I said before that solves the language problem.

The next issue is that PS3's Cell processor is a mash up of a CPU and Floating Point hardware, the Floating Point math can be handled by PS4's GPU.

As for the PowerPC tech, 360 has 3X the cores compared to PS3, so PS4 has ample CPU hardware to deal with this side of the technical issues.

 

I've explained every area here, PS4 can be made to run a virtual PS3 on it's hardware and thus play PS3 games, it only needs for Sony to set up a team of programmers to solve these technical issues and they could definitely get PS3 games up and running well on PS4. You're not giving any technical explanations for why this cannot be done, I on the other hand have given a technical explanation of how it's definitely achievable.



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JustBeingReal on 17 October 2015
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
JustBeingReal said:
rolltide101x said:
JustBeingReal said:
Getting PS3 games to run on PS4 isn't impossible, it's just a very complicated process and would require a fair amount of work.

1st of all you have to deal with the core issues that the PPC in PS3 uses RISC assembly language and the SPEs use it's own custom assembly language which is called ISA.
The code that runs on both of those processors in PS3 would need to be re-written or recognized as X86 on PS4.

PS3's SPE code could be offloaded to PS4's GPU in Backwards Compatibility, leaving a substantial amount of overhead CPU available for any tasks that need to deal with PowerPC processes.
PS4's GPU is substantially more powerful than the RSX.

Overall Sony could very likely write an emulation environment, basically a virtual PS3 to run on PS4's SOC.
Emulation handled in this way isn't the only possibility, Sony could re-write each game that users request, place a patch on servers for users to download when they're connected to the internet, though this is likely the more time consuming possibility.
I don't see why The ICE Team or some other development team that is familiar with PS3 and PS4 hardware, OS and APIs in both systems couldn't make a truly virtual PS3 that can run on PS4, it all just depends on whether Sony wants to make this work or provide the resources to make it happen.

Backwards Compatibility doesn't get in the way of PS Now, because the whole idea of PSNow is to be used as a rental service for people that don't own all of the games in the PS3's library or even for people that never owned a PS3 in the first place.

BC could allow Sony to sell more PS3 games, if people want a superior experience then the remasters and remakes will also sell, so really it's all money for Sony.

As for my reaction, I'd be impressed that Sony were willing to put the resources into this, though it's not impossible despite what some claim about this.

The PS4 is not powerful enough to emulate a PS3....... Even the PS4 GPU would severely struggle to emulate the PS3 GPU 1:1 (very possibly not even possible) and you are talking about offloading to the GPU? 

It is (power isn't the issue here, PS3 isn't anywhere near as capable as PS4), RSX is a cut down Nvidia 7800 GTX, it's exponentially weaker than what PS4 has. RSX wasn't exotic at all, it's basically a cut down version of a PC part.

PS4's GPU could emulate multiple RSX chips at once, in the case of PS3 the main issues are that Cell was exotic and that it's PowePC core used a RISC Instruction Set, while SPUs (SPEs) use their own custom one called ISA and a number Floting Point Operations were handled by that area of PS3's hardware, rather than all of them being done on the GPU.

PS4 can handle all of the Floating Point math on it's GPU, which is why I said Cell code could be moved over to PS4's GPU, leaving the available CPU cores to emulate the multi-threaded PowerPC on Jaguar.

 

PS3's PowerPC (not speaking about the SPEs here) is 1/3rd the amount of hardware present in 360's core CPU, yet XB1 doesn't have any issues in emulating this, even though it's using a RISC instruction set. PS4 would only have to worry about 1/3rd the CPU load, with the GPU handling SPE work.

Sony only needs to write a program that recognizes RISC and ISA code as X86, along with offloading SPE code to PS4's GPU.

 

TBH developers could probably write an efficient program that could do this with only a few times the power of PS3.

XB1 does not emulate the 360, it just downloads 360 ports.


Actually XB1 does emulate the 360:

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Here-How-Xbox-One-Backwards-Compatibility-Works-72606.html

If each game required porting then it would take weeks to months to get 360 games up and running on XBox One.

 

"And the 360 OS thinks its running on the hardware, which it's not, it's running on an emulated VM."

Microsoft wrote a virtual Xbox 360 and the OS can then run the games as they would on 360.

Each game has a small update to make it run on the XBox One's virtual machine, but it's not like the code for that game is completely re-written to run on XBox One.



pitzy272 on 17 October 2015

Reaction would be meh. Not wanting to get rid of my ps3. So much saved data. Also use it to watch netflix every day. Rather put miles on the old machine than the new one.



AlfredoTurkey on 17 October 2015
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

Its intresting to note that Like PS3, the XB1 was slaughtered till it rejected that extraneous mandatory feature (PS2 BC/Kinect). 


Removing PS2 BC had NOTHING to do with sales turning around. As a matter of fact, sales didn't really jump in a significant way until the slim released. It also wasn't costing them nearly what they wanted you to believe at the time. When you consider just how cheap PS2 BC was (and I'm not talking what Sony told us. I'm talking what the independant experts said), imo, they removed BC from PS3 because the Wii had showed them that there was revenue to be had selling old games again digitally. It also allowed them to keep selling PS2's which at the time, was bringing them in some SERIOUS money. The profit margins were HUGE, and Sony didn't want to eat them up by selling PS3's that could play PS2 software. It was a business move and one they repeated this generation. 

 

If Xbox One takes off in the US soon, it won't shock me if Sony pulls the same stunt and allows some PS3 games to work on it's console via emulation. Why? Because removing BC was ALWAYS about reselling old games and not eating PS3 hardware sales (profit margins). It was a shrewed, anti gamer, profit margin making move... nothing more. 



WolfpackN64 on 17 October 2015

It's just not possible...



the_dark_lewd on 17 October 2015

I'd be fairly pleased although the number of games you need the PS3 for is quite small.

Ni-no Kuni
Demon's Souls
MGS4
Tales of Graces

I can't think of much more that you can't play elsewhere...