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Forums - Politics Discussion - Donald Trump: Syrian refugees may be terrorist army in disguise, I'll force them out of the US

JWeinCom said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

 

So no, I am not making generalizations about atheists or secularists, I never mentioned them, never brought them into the discussion, I didn't even consider them, you did. 

And I'm not responding to the one person talking about religious people can't live in a democratic society, I'm talking about everyone who shares that similar anti-muslim, racist, and or xenophobic sentiment i.e us vs them. Notice how I am describing on their own "qualities" group of people, but I am not making baseless generalizations about them like oh they must be fat white males who live with there mothers or some crap like that.

 

""""""""""""""You are making a lot of assumptions here."""""""""""""""""""""""

No, I am making inferences.

Inferences are based on truth(fact). Unless, I explicitly stated the things that led to your conclusions, which i did not, those are assumptions.

"""""""""""""""""""I never commented on the religious background of those who said muslims cannot integrate into society, b/c its irrelevant.

I also never said that those saying muslims can't integrate into society are the same people saying whats religious people are whats wrong with this world. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Oh yes you did.  "Its insane, how people say oh religious people are intolerant, or they are whats wrong with the world, some of whom are the very people saying these racist things as though its common."

You clearly associate the people who say religion is wrong with the world to people who are saying racist things :)

Key word "Some of whom", which means not limited to, i.e the possibility exists but NOT that one presupposed the other. 

And if you weren't trying to make that connection, why did you feel it necessary to mention atheists and secularists at all?

Ummm....because you did? I didn't mention the phrase "atheists and secularists" until you did. 

"""""""""""""""""So no, I am not making generalizations about atheists or secularists, I never mentioned them, never brought them into the discussion, I didn't even consider them, you did. """"""""""""""""""""""

Yes.  Yes you did. You mentioned people who say "oh religious people are intolerant, or they are what's wrong with the world."  If a person things religion is what's wrong with the world, then they would by definition have to be secularists.  Unless you propose that someone who thinks religious people are what's wrong with the world also think that religion should be a part of government.  It is also simple to infer that many people in this category are atheists.

There is a spectrum of those who have differing beliefs about religions and religion in general. Religious intolerance is not a prerequiste of secularists and atheists. So no not even in this regard, can you claim I am making such a generalization.

So no, you did not specifically say secularists, but you gave a description of a group of people that can only be secularists.

Again wrong, "Religious intolerance is not a prerequiste of secularism/atheism", I can't even say its a subset of secularists because religious intolerance isn't even unique to such a group. I've stated many times in this thread that any kind of intolerance is embedded in human nature and cannot be attributed to any group of people.

 Of course, if you could explain to me how a group of people that thinks religion is what is wrong with the world can be anything but a secularist, I'll happily stand corrected.  

Religious intolerance is not a prerequiste of secularists and atheists. 

"""""""""""""""""""""And I'm not responding to the one person talking about religious people can't live in a democratic society, I'm talking about everyone who shares that similar anti-muslim, racist, and or xenophobic sentiment i.e us vs them. Notice how I am describing on their own "qualities" group of people, but I am not making baseless generalizations about them like oh they must be fat white males who live with there mothers or some crap like that."""""""""""""""""

I honestly have no ide what "I am describing them on their own "qualities" group of people" means.  Not to be rude but that simply does not make sense.

It makes sense, if I must simplify, judging based on facts and not fabrications. If Muhammed is in my CS class, I think he must have been smart to get into my class, not that he is an Al-Queda Sleeper.

You began by mentioning a specific group of people (people who think that religion is what's wrong with the world) and then associate them with racist comments.  Then you specifically make a point of saying you're a Christian.  If you're not trying to draw a distinction between christians and another group, why bring it up at all?

Because religious intolerance and racism, and really any other kind of intolerance, is all the same thing. I mention Christian because it is generally the Conservative viewpoint on refugees and immigration in general. And Christians are a big part of the Conservative group, at least here in America. I mention I am a Christian because, I'm proving an exception.

 I'm not going to get into a drawn out thing about it, because it's right there in black and white.  

Open your mind, and actually read what I wrote. You're so blinded by your own preconceptions, that you've only interpretted half of my claims correctly. And it's annoying that I have to spend, most of my post reiterating and explaining to you.

So much for black and white.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

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contestgamer said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

But they are different countries. I thought people should stay in their own countries. The EU is a, and stick with me on this, a Union of countries.

I honestly, don't give a damn that you don't give a damn about people who are different from you. I'm not really concerned about your opinions.

Just pointing out the hypocracy and contradictions, you seem to ignore the fact that the EU, on the historical timescale, is a recent development. These very countries you talk about that share a similar culture and religion were fucking murdering each other half a century ago, and spent most of recorded history murdering each other as well.


Do you believe in having borders?

Absolutely. Do I understand, the fear and anger, yes. Personally, I believe that the US should take most of the refugees, and not because I'm some fucking Social Justice Warrior, but simply because of the fact, that the US is "responsible" for the Syrian war. This is the same crap we did to Libya.

However, what I disagree with is the use of the actual issues of the immigration crisis, such as the economics or the effect of this on european culture, to purport anti-religious or anti-muslim ideas.

The ISIL infiltration argument is the only legitimate one with regards to describing the refugees, because that is a real relevant threat.

Everything else such as they are poor(realizes these are fucking refugees, you don't have time to move your god damn assets when you are a refugee), or they are muslim, etc...

Everyone is a gawd damned victim here, the syrian refugees, european citizens, everyone.

Demonizing refugees because they want to survive, well...

And specificially, with regard to you contestgamer.

Borders aren't a reason, refugee's shouldn't be allowed in, rather its the other stuff you touched on, and I mentioned above.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

thismeintiel said:
fireburn95 said:
NightDragon83 said:
fireburn95 said:
Considering they are migrating as a result of things america and some of eu did a few years back, they deserve to be homed by the ones that caused their countries demise. Why should people be forced to fight a victoriless war??

I must've missed the part where the US and its European allies bombed and invaded Syria.

On the other hand, the whole "Arab Spring" thing that was backed by Obama and Hillary and saw the destabilization and further radicalization of several Middle Eastern nations like Libya, Egypt and... surprise surprise... Syria back in 2011, is another matter entirely.


I didn't say anything about bombing Syria. But ISIS only rose from the decapacitation of their leader, Saddam. Saddam was a necessary evil who controlled his extremist armies. They invaded Iraq, killed many people including civilians, never found this so called nuclear weapon, then left.

What did they leave behind? A boatload of weapons, and some very angry extremists. If someone punched you in the face, i'm sure you would hold resentment to them, probably want to punch them back, or kick them harder.

As for Assad, he was democratically elected. He's a bad man no doubt, but when you're living with a bad man on one side, and extremist terrorists on the other, and you're stuck in the middle of a 4-way war, all nothing to do with you, what else do you expect but people fleeing that war.

Let's not blame this all on the Western World, shall we?  The truth is, which most people don't want to accept, is there is a VERY large extremist population within the Muslim world.  One that wants others of different faiths dead or as slaves.  No amount of money, gifts, or persuasion will convince them of stopping that goal.  And no, they do not have a right to be that angry, no matter what weak excuses some make for them.  And they will use anything they see as injustice, even a reactive blow from one of their own attacks, to cry foul and gain more support/sympathy.  Unfortunately, there are not enough reformers within the religion to butt heads against the extremists and/or change the hearts of those who may not join in on the violence, but do sympathize with the terrorists. 

Now, having said that, I do agree that the dictators in those regions were a necessary evil to keep them under control.  I think that's why we originally backed them to begin with.  And I have heard that Christians in the area actually liked Assad because he kept the radicals out of their hair, for the most part.  Sadly, our current President has a real soft spot for Muslims.  Now, that wouldn't be a bad thing if it were just for the reformers within the religion.  Unfortunately, that soft spot includes the more extreme groups of the religion, too, who he sees as having a legitimate reason behind their anger.  That's why he supported the Arab Spring and wanted ALL the dictators in the region gone or dead.  Even the ones who weren't posing any kind of threat to us and kept the radicals at bay.  That's also why he's only half-assedly trying to stop ISIS in Syria, barely bombing them, and instead focusing on turning people against Assad.


Or... there is a very large extremist population who uses religous warfare as a scapegoat to destroy america.

Much like with the KKK against blacks.

Much like extreme homphobes like the westboro baptist church.

 

And your 'very large' is a very ridiculous statement. 
US foreign intelligence estimates 31,500 ISIS fighters. Let's call it 50k.
US analysts estimates 'tens of thousands of Al Qaeda fighters' Let's go for a max of 100k.
At this point, those are the two largest terrorist groups.

Let's round that up to 500k incase we missed some out. 

Now, 1.57 billion muslims on our planet. That = 0.03% of the muslim population. So large is a wrong term in this case.

And as I said previously, if someone punched you over and over again, wouldn't you want to punch them back. That's all america has been doing, less so now with Obama, but with George Bush, it was all caveated by a military service for oil.

Isis are evil, but the resentment they have for america is understandable. If the only way they can hit the west now is by slicing the necks of a few white dudes, that is what they're gonna do.



NightDragon83 said:

For all of Trump's grandstanding and hyperbole, he's not that far off with some of his comments.  A good chunk of the "refugees" currently flooding into Europe from northern Africa and the ME are no more political / war refugees than they are economic migrants, not unlike the hundreds of thousands that pour into the US via the southern border every year, that are simply looking to take advantage of the generous benefits certain countries are willing to hand out to them.

This meme explains the whole Syrian "refugee crisis" in a nutshell...


Are you serious? Yeah, it makes sense to migrate to a prosporous area. But, Also, the "meme" makes no sense. There's war in Turkey, and Ukraine. Just saying. And no, they're not using the death of their families as an "excuse" to migrate. It's a legitimate reason. 



SuperNova said:
MohammadBadir said:
mausy said:


Fixed like Iraq & Libya? 

No, I mean fixed like...

Ummm...

Yeah...

Fixed like Germany maybe? I know it's been a while since second world war, but America and the western allies have shown rather spectacularily that you can fix a country that has been broken down by war and extremist beliefs. Now granted Germany is and always has been much more similar to America in it's value system than any of the middle eastern countries are, but it is possible.


Akhem, what? Germany as an example of a country destroyed by II WW? You must be joking man. In comparison to the rest of Europe, nothing happened to Germany - since they were the invaders, the war happened mostly outside of their coutry! From the economical point of view, they easily won the war and are building their currently dominant position on that victory. And claiming that Americans have fixed anything in Germany is far from the truth as well.

 

@OT - Trump is an idiot, even if he says a smart thing once a year. I'd like America to elect McCain, but don't know if it's still possible (is it?). He seems to be a wise man, not like this fool Trump or a weak and ignorant Obama that nobody cares about or respects.

I'm not going to tell anyone what they should do with these immigrants, and I bloody demand other countries not to force my country to do what they want. If Germany wanted them, bought TV ads telling them to come over and were all signing "Herzlich Willkommen", they may keep them - deal with the consequences of your actions, but don't force them on my country! US started this whole shitstorm in the Middle East? Well then you sure have some responsibility towards these people and should take care of them - one way or another. France bombed Libya? Then they should somehow help people over there. I want my country to help these people as well, help fund decent standard of living in the camps, participare in rebuilding their country after the war, but I don't want my country to accept immigrants and God forbid the crime of mandatory quotas those a$$hole Germans want to impose on us.

I pray that in 3 weeks the party that's against accepting any immigrants gets enough mandates in the election to rule on their own. Their victory is already a given, only the scale is the question and whether all other parties unite against them or not. If they rule, all is not lost for Poland in this immigrant crisis.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

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Mendicate Bias said:
Lawlight said:

No, they won't.

He's right on this matter. Muslims cannot integrate in a democratic, secular country. The majority of them think that Sharia law is above the constitution.

That's why Muslims born in America have on average higher education and income levels compared to white Americans. Or why the only ethnic minority to own a NFL team, the quintessential American sport, is a Muslim.

Not that it matters what I say. You live in a bubble and clearly have no understanding of how the world works. Besides I'd love to see you spew your racist shit to my face, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't have the balls.

You probably have some shitty job or live with your parents so you take out your feeling of inadequacy on others. But keep on being an anonymous keyboard warrior, I'm sure you'll accomplish something with your life eventually.

Sounds like you're hurt. I could easily accuse you of living with your parents and have some shitty job too. Let me guess, are you a Muslim? What's your take on the majority of Muslims in the U.S. in favour of Sharia Law?

- user was moderated for this and earlier posts.

-  Tachikoma



Danman27 said:
NightDragon83 said:

For all of Trump's grandstanding and hyperbole, he's not that far off with some of his comments.  A good chunk of the "refugees" currently flooding into Europe from northern Africa and the ME are no more political / war refugees than they are economic migrants, not unlike the hundreds of thousands that pour into the US via the southern border every year, that are simply looking to take advantage of the generous benefits certain countries are willing to hand out to them.

This meme explains the whole Syrian "refugee crisis" in a nutshell...


Are you serious? Yeah, it makes sense to migrate to a prosporous area. But, Also, the "meme" makes no sense. There's war in Turkey, and Ukraine. Just saying. And no, they're not using the death of their families as an "excuse" to migrate. It's a legitimate reason. 


The thing is, illegal immigrants should not be allowed to enter a country ruled by law. We go through all that bullshit on the airports with not being allowed to take a 125 ml liquid, etc. only to let millions of random people, many of whom are terrorists, to roam around the whole continent unchecked? Guess how much weapons and drugs is being smuggled into Europe right now? Also let's not forget these people are not Syrians - they are actually the minority of the immigrants. The people storming Europe right now come from a massive part of Africa - especially the sub-Sahara region, as well as other Middle Eastern countries. They aren't fleeing any bombs. They are here for the monies.

And despite the fact that there is war in Ukraine, it is not offically a war and the Ukrainian government officially still operates as normal. Hence Ukrainians fleeing to Poland can't be awarded the refugee status and be counted towards the quotas that we are forced to accept. Such BS.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

I'm scared for the future.

The best example is arguably the most progressive country in Europe...Sweden.
That's all I'll say on the matter, and I believe that it's all that is necessary.

Both sides of the argument are ignoring the plight of the other.
If "migrants" are allowed to move to EU, and accepted there; shouldn't Europeans be accepted in those ME/NA countries, too? Aren't they "intolerant?"

Apply the golden rule and go from there.



 
I WON A BET AGAINST AZUREN! WOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

:3

TheWPCTraveler said:
I'm scared for the future.

The best example is arguably the most progressive country in Europe...Sweden.
That's all I'll say on the matter, and I believe that it's all that is necessary.

Both sides of the argument are ignoring the plight of the other.
If "migrants" are allowed to move to EU, and accepted there; shouldn't Europeans be accepted in those ME/NA countries, too? Aren't they "intolerant?"

Apply the golden rule and go from there.


That's one thing. I'd also call for "no immigrants till the Muslims stop with Sharia police and all the no-go zones that exist in Western Europe". People keep on throwing "xenophobes" around, but fail to see this is one of the most important reasons why Central Europe is so against these immigrants. We don't want that in our countries.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

Goodnightmoon said:

You think you like some people in this forums until a thread like this comes and you just realize you don´t like them so much...

The good thing is that happens the other way around too.

If that is how you decide who you like or don't like, by their political opinion, that's sad.