I find out that both Moslem, Christian, and Jew have similar history. So I assume there was a one single religion in the past but somehow it split to our current religion. But this is merely my opinion.

JWeinCom said: Mr.Playstation said: Hey Christian here :P. I would like to debate point six where you said that organised religion is fundemently bad thing ( I agree with points 1 and I guess point 7 so feel free to start a debate on the others or even these two, if you want ) Anyways I don't believe that organized religion is a fundemently bad thing since looking at this from today's relatively peaceful time religion serves no other reason than to unite us into one big community. Sure hundread's of years ago, religion devided alot of groups of people but nowadays with acts such as "Nostra Aetate" ( Talks about how each religion needs to respect each other ) and the constant attempts at unifying all forms of christianity under one leader ( The Pope ) make this much more clear ( That organised religion is about peace not war ) At a personal level religion helps me feel part of a community. Today I went to Church and you know what, I actually felt like I was in a commuinty ( The type you feel when you're gathered with your family ). I know that religion can be seen as if it's still stuck in the 1500's but it really isn't, it's now more willing to accept other people's beliefs even if they may not be in line with ours ( And hence peace is number 1 on each religion's agenda ) You're taking a pretty narrow view of religion.  You are ignoring that the entire middle east, and large parts of Africa, that are suffering incredibly due to the influence of religion.  Then you have the mass pedophilia of priests whom the catholic church has fought to protect, acts of prejudice against gays, the insistence of taking away individual rights, etc.  There are still many places where you can be killed for believing the wrong thing. My issue with organized religion is that it fundamentally teaches you to obey.  It teaches you that someone else is qualified to instruct you on what this all powerful being wants.  The catholic church, where the pope is literally viewed as divine (and I like this pope but divine he ain't), is particularly dangerous in its heirarchical approach.  The idea that the clergy is godly and to be implicitly trusted is why they've gotten away the abuse that they've gotten. All of this is not to say that religion has no good value.  I know some organizations do charitable work, and it can be valued for the individual.  But, I think that these services can be rendered without the dogma and heirarchy that can, and have frequently, been abused to terrible ends.  I've felt a sense of community in many places without religion being involved.  I think the good of religion can be done without religion.  However, I think the bad done by religion cannot be done without it (or at least would be much harder to do).  To beat up on the Catholic Church some more, can you think of ANY organization that could survive such a scandal as the catholic church did and still survive?

Let's start from the bottom and go all the way up from to the top:

1. Any big political organisation, would probably be able to survive such a scandal and survive.

@bolded: Literally everywhere teaches one to fundamentally just obey what they're told. Schools teach you that you need to obey the higher ups and lick up to them as much as you can to get somewhere. Politics teach you to obey and trust them and hence most politicians ( Especially Presidents/Prime ministers ) are seen as people who know better than you and should be trusted even when that may be unqualified or are like puppet behind strings. The bad thing about this is that previously these where not actually the main functions of such institutions. School was there to make you use your brain and not be spoon-fed and respect towards people in power should be the reason why you obey them and not just because. Politics was set up to fundemantly make you not obey whatever the upper powers choose, you and the rest of the nation could change whatever the higher-ups had chosen. All of them yet, turned to teaching the average folk that obedience is key. Hence we can almost come to a conclusion that practically humanity cannot exist with someone whether it be that person up there ( Who may or may not exist ) or someone whose seen as a role model down here.

@First Paragraph:

Suffering incredibly due to influence of religion comment: Extrimists exists in everything whether it be politics of religion. Most people in the middle East/Africa are suffering at the hands of a couple of groups of extremists who are thirsty for blood. There are then numerous wars being waged for religion but we are all human and hence pride for one's homeland may sometimes get out of control. They may be fighting in the name of religion but I highly doubt that that's the whole story.

@Pedo comment: Ounce again we are all human, you have urges and we all have urges. Stuff like this happens everywhere and you really can't stop. You also can't blame a whole institution for a problem a small portion have made.

@Gays/Individual rights: Morality exists and you can't really help it, the church is just morally against gays. Ounce a black man dining in a restaurant was almost forbidden but the church back then supported against all negative tides, equality for these people. Unfortunaly the religious Morality ( or catholic Morality ) only goes this far.

@Getting killed: And someone can get killed/ hasseled for being Gay/Black/White/politically different/ everything really. It's how it goes and it really can't be stopped. 

I could answer this question if you were more specific about religions.  There is nothing inherently moral in religion.  For example, Satanism is a religion that I'm guessing you would find immoral.

Assuming you mean the major world religions, I don't think religion has contributed much in the way of morality.  Thinkers like Confuscious and Buddha (Buddhism is a kind of gray area between philosophy and religion) and Greek thinkers.  

I don't find Judaism Christianity to be particularly moral.  The idea of human sacrifice, vicarious redemption, infinite punishment for finite sin, god having a chosen people, or the need for faith to be moral.  There are some moral things in the Bible/Torah.  Thou shalt not kill is a good one, love thy neighbor is a nice sentiment.  But, I don't think that we need a god to tell us to be nice to people.  We do need a god to tell us things like, believe a certain way or you'll suffer for all eternity, or stone gay people to death.

Speaking of gay relations, I don't think they would be the norm with or without religion.  I'm not attracted to men, and I don't think that non-attraction has anything to do with my limited religious instruction.  There probably would be more open homosexuals, and more homosexual activity, but not more gay people.  It certainly wouldn't have been anything near the norm, because most people are generally attracted to the opposite sex.  Heterosexuality is the norm among most animal species (although there are gay animals), and they don't have the Bible telling them that being gay is wrong.

I don't think morals are the way they've always been.  I think the great thing is that morals have evolved.  As we gain knowledge, we have a better idea on how to treat each other fairly and how to make a better society.  We're not perfect yet, but I do believe that, in the westernized world, we are progressively getting more moral.  In contrast, the Bible is static.  The Bible says to stone gay people.  It says it now, and it will never change.  And if you truly believe it to be the word of god, it is not only unchanging but inerrant.  Belief in a deity and a holy book retards our moral development.  If morals were set by the sky god, they cannot be changed despite any knowledge we gain about how fucked they are.  Fortunately, most people do not take the Bible literally enough to enforce all of its laws.  But, you can see places where they do, and those places are generally not places you'd want to live.

Well, that's true.  Judaism was first, then Christianity was a reformed version of Judaism that claimed the Messiah had come, and Islam is an addition that claims that God made more revelations to Islam.  

So that's true, those three religions (which are not the only three) have the same god.  What I'm unclear on is whether you think that this god actually exists.

Yes I believe He is exist. To many coincidence to prove His existence.

You're not wrong; all westernized religions that originated in the Middle East/India all borrowed stories, rules, figures, and other aspects from eachother. Judaism borrowed the story about Noah's Ark from Zorastianism, for example (The Epic of Gilgamesh). Remember how Jesus was said to travel around a lot? It is theorized that he met figures such as Siddartha Guatama (founder of Buddhism) on his travels and the two had some nice sit-down chats. Can provide more examples if needed.

Source: Studied World Religions in University

Ok JWein, I have some stuff for you to look at. Feel free to pick apart my interpretation that I posted a while ago in a different thread:

Here's the thing: I believe religion was first created out of the fear of the unknown. The fear of what happens to us when we die. When we became self aware as a species, we had the drive to figure out everything around us. Since then it has been a debate of to-know-or-not-to-know; a fear of the unknown but also a fear of knowledge.

I look at Religion in one way: it is a set of rules to live by so that we may stand as a community against the fear of the unknown, and a warning to stay human instead of seeking out all there is to know about our Universe. It's like saying ignorance is bliss because ignorance is safe.

Not the best example, but look at most Japan, a culture that seems to have always been very accepting of death; much more so than Western cultures. Japan has little to no Westernized Organized religion, only adopting such principles as Christian Weddings. Japan is spiritual; not religious.

Now onto religious stories that warned us of knowledge.

Look at the Biblical story of Adam and Eve. They follow the rules and live in blissful ignorance. The snake (which I see as Natural Human Curiosity) tells them to eat from the tree of knowledge, which makes them self aware of their true existence, and they get thrown out of Eden.

Pandora's box in Greek Mythology; a myth that has many different interpretations, one such being this: Prometheus steals fire from the heavens and gifts it to the humans, which angers the Gods, and Zeus decides to punish them to compensate for the boon they were given. The Gods gift Pandora (the first woman on Earth) to the humans, and she brings with her a box which contains many evils. She was told to never open it, but she grows curious of the gift which she brought with her, and opens the jar, unleashing disease/famine etc upon the world.

With so much unknown in the world we are told to place our faith on a deity, so we might feel safe and communal. This deity is the only thing we have to believe in. We miss out on all the other knowledge, but we stay blissfully ignorant of all the evils that may be lurking within that knowledge.

So many people grew so many different interpretations of religion over the years. Wars were fought over holy ground, ideas and people were rejected because perhaps they were a little different to what they had grown up believing. It is hard to advocate change in a system that I believe is all about keeping things the same; staying safe and secure.

There are also good things that I take away from religion. I do like the feeling of community that one gets while going to church. I do like many teachings from Jesus (the person) and Muhammad, who preached a peaceful existence. Siddhartha Gautama and Guru Nanak also preached many good things. Pope Francis (the current one) is a very bright spot on the Catholic Church.

Like everything else in life, I am free and welcome to accept some aspects while rejecting others. This is how I see it. I grew up going to Church and believing in God, and I still think that there are some things that cannot be explained. Is that because I was conditioned to believe so? Who knows, that is a conversation for another day.

I don't think that Judaism borrorwing a story is the only explanation. There's basically 2 explanations, one assuming it is true and one assuming it is false. The one assuming it is false would say that they were copied, and the one assuming it is true would say that a world-wide flood happened, and the story was passed down through generations, and eventually the stories changed, like the telephone game.

It'd seem like that. From a secular stand-point, Christianity came from Judaism, and Islam is like a mash-up.

But what I believe is that Judaism (Non Messianic) came from the rejection of the Messiah, Christianity is following the Messiah, and Islam is a mash-up of sorts.

There are more than 2, I'd say. It can be true and have been copied and altered to fit one group's beliefs, culture, and worldview. Or it could be false in the same way. Your telephone game analogy brings up an interesting point however, what with so many people nowadays taking the Bible so literally. I havea theory that most of the stories in the Bible are moral fables.