Mr.Playstation said:
JWeinCom said:
You're taking a pretty narrow view of religion. You are ignoring that the entire middle east, and large parts of Africa, that are suffering incredibly due to the influence of religion. Then you have the mass pedophilia of priests whom the catholic church has fought to protect, acts of prejudice against gays, the insistence of taking away individual rights, etc. There are still many places where you can be killed for believing the wrong thing.
My issue with organized religion is that it fundamentally teaches you to obey. It teaches you that someone else is qualified to instruct you on what this all powerful being wants. The catholic church, where the pope is literally viewed as divine (and I like this pope but divine he ain't), is particularly dangerous in its heirarchical approach. The idea that the clergy is godly and to be implicitly trusted is why they've gotten away the abuse that they've gotten.
All of this is not to say that religion has no good value. I know some organizations do charitable work, and it can be valued for the individual. But, I think that these services can be rendered without the dogma and heirarchy that can, and have frequently, been abused to terrible ends. I've felt a sense of community in many places without religion being involved.
I think the good of religion can be done without religion. However, I think the bad done by religion cannot be done without it (or at least would be much harder to do). To beat up on the Catholic Church some more, can you think of ANY organization that could survive such a scandal as the catholic church did and still survive?
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Let's start from the bottom and go all the way up from to the top:
1. Any big political organisation, would probably be able to survive such a scandal and survive.
@bolded: Literally everywhere teaches one to fundamentally just obey what they're told. Schools teach you that you need to obey the higher ups and lick up to them as much as you can to get somewhere. Politics teach you to obey and trust them and hence most politicians ( Especially Presidents/Prime ministers ) are seen as people who know better than you and should be trusted even when that may be unqualified or are like puppet behind strings. The bad thing about this is that previously these where not actually the main functions of such institutions. School was there to make you use your brain and not be spoon-fed and respect towards people in power should be the reason why you obey them and not just because. Politics was set up to fundemantly make you not obey whatever the upper powers choose, you and the rest of the nation could change whatever the higher-ups had chosen. All of them yet, turned to teaching the average folk that obedience is key. Hence we can almost come to a conclusion that practically humanity cannot exist with someone whether it be that person up there ( Who may or may not exist ) or someone whose seen as a role model down here.
@First Paragraph:
Suffering incredibly due to influence of religion comment: Extrimists exists in everything whether it be politics of religion. Most people in the middle East/Africa are suffering at the hands of a couple of groups of extremists who are thirsty for blood. There are then numerous wars being waged for religion but we are all human and hence pride for one's homeland may sometimes get out of control. They may be fighting in the name of religion but I highly doubt that that's the whole story.
@Pedo comment: Ounce again we are all human, you have urges and we all have urges. Stuff like this happens everywhere and you really can't stop. You also can't blame a whole institution for a problem a small portion have made.
@Gays/Individual rights: Morality exists and you can't really help it, the church is just morally against gays. Ounce a black man dining in a restaurant was almost forbidden but the church back then supported against all negative tides, equality for these people. Unfortunaly the religious Morality ( or catholic Morality ) only goes this far.
@Getting killed: And someone can get killed/ hasseled for being Gay/Black/White/politically different/ everything really. It's how it goes and it really can't be stopped.
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1. Any big political organisation, would probably be able to survive such a scandal and survive.
If it was found that democratic party had systematically molested children and tried to cover it up, do you think people would be voting for them the next election? Yeah, I'm not buying this.
@bolded: Literally everywhere teaches one to fundamentally just obey what they're told. Schools teach you that you need to obey the higher ups and lick up to them as much as you can to get somewhere.
As a teacher, I take issue with that. Schools I've been in have teachers explain the logical reason for rules, and inflict rational consequences for disobeying this. Of course, some teachers do demand obedience, but that is not inherent in the system. There is no school for instance (well except religious schools) that teach that teachers are appointed by god and if you disobey them you go to hell. Blind obedience exists in some schools, but it is not built into the fabric of the institution as it is with religion.
Politics teach you to obey and trust them and hence most politicians ( Especially Presidents/Prime ministers ) are seen as people who know better than you and should be trusted even when that may be unqualified or are like puppet behind strings.
No. We vote for politicians every few years. That's quite different from blind obedience. There are flaws with the system, but the questioning of politicians is actually built into it. If people were blindly obedient, you wouldn't have politicians spending millions of dollars each campaign system, and you wouldn't have competition for offices. The approval rating for the Senate is like under 20%. Obama's is just under 50. This is not blind obedience.
The bad thing about this is that previously these where not actually the main functions of such institutions. School was there to make you use your brain and not be spoon-fed and respect towards people in power should be the reason why you obey them and not just because.
No. Public schooling was actually designed in large part for the expressed purpose of religious instruction. Protestant organizations were a huge driving force in the public schooling movement in the US. There has been a movement towards less authoritative styles of education. Ask a long time teacher if students were more obedient now or in the past. And, objectively, the use of discipline is WAY restricted compared to the past.
Politics was set up to fundemantly make you not obey whatever the upper powers choose, you and the rest of the nation could change whatever the higher-ups had chosen. All of them yet, turned to teaching the average folk that obedience is key. Hence we can almost come to a conclusion that practically humanity cannot exist with someone whether it be that person up there ( Who may or may not exist ) or someone whose seen as a role model down here.
Yeah, I don't think that either. The media regularly tears into politicians. Turn to fox news to see Obama consistently torn down. Look at your facebook feed to see how obedient people are. Look to MSNBC or the Daily Show to see the obedience and respect we have for republicans.
Then, watch what happens when someone draws a cartoon of muhammed or says something negative about Jesus. The levels of obedience are nowehere NEAR comparable.
Suffering incredibly due to influence of religion comment: Extrimists exists in everything whether it be politics of religion. Most people in the middle East/Africa are suffering at the hands of a couple of groups of extremists who are thirsty for blood. There are then numerous wars being waged for religion but we are all human and hence pride for one's homeland may sometimes get out of control. They may be fighting in the name of religion but I highly doubt that that's the whole story.
It is not the whole story, and I didn't mean to imply it was. But religion is the rallying cry. In the middle east, people have been trained to believe that obedience to Allah is mandatory. So, groups use that to take advantage of the impressionable. Religion is a weapon that is being used, and without it, these extremists would lack the power to do what they wished.
Of course in other cases, religion is the ACTUAL cause of suffering. Look at what is going on with Christianity in Uganda or how the Catholic Church is encouraging people in Africa not to use condoms.
@Pedo comment: Ounce again we are all human, you have urges and we all have urges. Stuff like this happens everywhere and you really can't stop. You also can't blame a whole institution for a problem a small portion have made.
Kids are trained to implicitly trust priests. Adults believe priests are holy and so they trust their kids with them. The church, in an effort to protect its images, actual moved pedophiles around the world to avoid prosecution. This isn't just something that happend. It is something that was enabled by the institution. They taught kids to trust the holy man, and the holy man could then abuse that trust. This would not have happened on this scale in ANY OTHER organization. What other institution has had a pedophilia issue on this scale?
@Gays/Individual rights: Morality exists and you can't really help it, the church is just morally against gays. Ounce a black man dining in a restaurant was almost forbidden but the church back then supported against all negative tides, equality for these people. Unfortunaly the religious Morality ( or catholic Morality ) only goes this far.
No... the church did not support equality for black people. Some chuches did others didn't.
But here's what it comes down to. You don't need the church to tell you that we shouldn't enslave people or limit their rights. In fact, the Bible specifically endorses slavery. The idea that "maybe it's not right to enslave people" is something we could have gotten to with or without the church.
On the contrary, the idea that homosexuality is a sin is almost intrinsically linked to religion. There is no real logic to claim that this activity is really harmful, unless you're a wandering desert tribe that needs a high rate of population growth. Do you suggest that it is just a coincidence that the vast majority of those against gay marraige are Christian? That proposition 8 in California was funded mainly by the mormon church? That the governor of Louisianna is refusing to accept the Supreme Court's ruling because "God defined marraige as being between a man and a woman?"
You don't need to be a Christian to dislike gays (and not all Christians do dislike gays), but this is the only justification that can be given that people will accept without just saying, "you're a biggot".
@Getting killed: And someone can get killed/ hasseled for being Gay/Black/White/politically different/ everything really. It's how it goes and it really can't be stopped.
It can't be stopped completely. But one way to reduce it is to eliminate an institution that specifically TELLS US TO KILL GAY PEOPLE "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." It's in the holy book of the institution. The opposition to homosexuality is almost entirely religious. Don't throw politics and race into this, because those are seperate issues. This is a "sin" that is, as of now, intrinsically linked to religion.
First off, if institutions like school or politics DID encourage blind obedience the way Christianity does, I'd want to change those too. I don't think this is the case, but even if it was that's irrelevant. If other organizations encourage blind obedience that doesn't mean religion can too. It means all of them should be reformed or abolished.
A key difference between religion and the others is that others are necessary institutions. We need schools. So if they're flawed, we need to reform them. We can't just get rid of schools and governments, so we have to fix the flaws. But, we can live without religion, so we can just dump the baby Jesus out with the bath water.
It seems that your defense of religion amounts to "well other people do it too". And in some cases that's true. In some cases that's not. People have been killed for drawing Mohammed. How can this happen with religion? People are killed for apostasy. How can this be without religion? (See also condoms in Africa,evangelism in Uganda, honor killings in Muslim countries, and so on). One of my favorite religion only sins is desecration of the host. In the middle ages, people were LITERALLY killed for breaking crackers that were said to be part of the body of Christ. Let me repeat that. http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_blib2.htm
PEOPLE WERE KILLED FOR BREAKING CRAKCERS. Yeah this was years ago, but the reason those things don't happen anymore is because of how much we have weakened the institution of religion. And when you look at countries that are still theocracies, you see things just as insane like the death penalty for insulting a prophet.
Yeah, violence happens, and getting rid of religion wouldn't solve every happen in the world. But there are a lot of things that are specific to religion that would be rid of. To go back to the catholic church example, are priests the only pedophiles? No. But they are the only pedophiles who have a whole congregation who is told from birth that they are to be trusted implicitly. They are the only pedophiles who would be trusted to be alone with so many children despite having no sort of credentials to indicate that they should be alone with children and no system of accountability. Their postion of divine authority made it far less likely for the Children to speak out.. They are the only pedophiles who have the backing of an organization that would hide them from justice.
The priests were able to do what they did because of the obedience training. That training and that dogma is a powerful tool that is and has wreaked havoc on the world. Unless there is a compelling reason to keep this tool around, we should be rid of it.
