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Forums - General Discussion - The Debate About Religion Topic

 

Has this topic influenced you at all?

I was a non-believer, and... 2 12.50%
 
I was a non-believer, and I still am. 7 43.75%
 
I was a non-believer, but... 0 0%
 
I was a non-believer, but now I believe. 3 18.75%
 
I was a believer, and now I don't believe. 1 6.25%
 
I was a believer, but thi... 0 0%
 
I was a believer, and I still am. 3 18.75%
 
I was a believer, and now... 0 0%
 
I am agnostic, and this t... 0 0%
 
I am agnostic, and this t... 0 0%
 
Total:16
spurgeonryan said:
Interesting that we cannot prove that he existed, yet Dan Brown can prove he was Married...

If he did exist and was the savior are Jews going to Hell for not believing he died for them? Or what if he did exist but was just turned into a matter by the Romans for control or for whatever the reason was? Do all current Christians go to Hell and Jews are safe?

Jews who don't believe would go to Hell if he is truly the Messiah. If he isn't, I'd assume that Christians would go to Hell (Althoguh some Jews don't believe that exists), and the faithful Jews are safe.



Can't wait for The Zelder Scrolls 3: Breath of The Wild Hunt!

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Esiar said:
JWeinCom said:

If you want to switch to the other topic we can do that.  Just let me know and I'll drop this line of conversation.

So, first off we do not know that Jesus existed. Most historians tend to agree that he did, but it is far from proven. It is difficult to prove that anyone existed back then, and even people like Socrates are not confirmed to have existed. Moreover, even if it was confirmed that Jesus existed, what he said is as far away from historically verified as you can get.

And what you said indicates the Jesus, if real, felt that the Bible was literally true. But, if a character within the story referred to other characters in the story as true, that does not make it so. Do you have evidence outside of the Bible that would confirm its accuracy? Because, saying the Bible is true because a character within it said it is true is kind of circular.

Well that did bring one idea to my mind: That from your perspective, the Old Testament authors could have believed differently than the New Testament authors. What I was saying is that, the book of Acts (for example) is written as if the events physically happened, which doesn't make sense if it was intened to be metophorical, which suggests that the intention of the Book of Acts' author was to record events (real or fake) in a way to make it sound like it actually happened rather than a meaning behind all of it that teaches a moral lesson or something in that regard.


So, I get that you're saying the Bible was meant to be taken literally.  I'm assuming you know the Bible better than me, so I won't argue that.  My question is why do you accept that it is real?  Even if it was intented to be viewed as realistic, you still need some verification that it actually did happen, if, as you originally said, there is obvious proof.  There are many things written in a realistic style that are not real, and even things that are reported as real that are not.  So, assuming that the authors meant this to be viewed as real, why do you believe them?



spurgeonryan said:
Interesting that we cannot prove that he existed, yet Dan Brown can prove he was Married...

If he did exist and was the savior are Jews going to Hell for not believing he died for them? Or what if he did exist but was just turned into a matter by the Romans for control or for whatever the reason was? Do all current Christians go to Hell and Jews are safe?


I would worry about if it's real first before trying to figure out who does or does not go to hell.



JWeinCom said:
Esiar said:

Well that did bring one idea to my mind: That from your perspective, the Old Testament authors could have believed differently than the New Testament authors. What I was saying is that, the book of Acts (for example) is written as if the events physically happened, which doesn't make sense if it was intened to be metophorical, which suggests that the intention of the Book of Acts' author was to record events (real or fake) in a way to make it sound like it actually happened rather than a meaning behind all of it that teaches a moral lesson or something in that regard.


So, I get that you're saying the Bible was meant to be taken literally.  I'm assuming you know the Bible better than me, so I won't argue that.  My question is why do you accept that it is real?  Even if it was intented to be viewed as realistic, you still need some verification that it actually did happen, if, as you originally said, there is obvious proof.  

I'm too tired (not physically) to explain it. I am not in the mood right now.



Can't wait for The Zelder Scrolls 3: Breath of The Wild Hunt!

Esiar said:
JWeinCom said:


So, I get that you're saying the Bible was meant to be taken literally.  I'm assuming you know the Bible better than me, so I won't argue that.  My question is why do you accept that it is real?  Even if it was intented to be viewed as realistic, you still need some verification that it actually did happen, if, as you originally said, there is obvious proof.  

I'm too tired (not physically) to explain it. I am not in the mood right now.


Eh... well, I'm not going to force you.



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spurgeonryan said:
JWeinCom said:


I would worry about if it's real first before trying to figure out who does or does not go to hell.


Despite your rules, I thought this was a discussion thread? Not just a ,"I am athiest and there is no gods, end of discussion thread"? Was I mistaken?

I know your answer is an easy one to throw at me, but if you do believe it is kind of a serious one.

Well, the thing is, I can only really argue my own viewpoints. So, anything I say will be from the atheist point of view.   I'm not saying your question is not worth considering, but I don't believe hell is real, or Jesus was really the sun of god.  Since I don't believe Jesus was real, I can't really say what the rules would be if he were.  I just can't get into that mindset.

So, while someone else who stops by may wish to discuss it, I can't really give a meaningful response to that.  



Hey Christian here :P.

I would like to debate point six where you said that organised religion is fundemently bad thing ( I agree with points 1 and I guess point 7 so feel free to start a debate on the others or even these two, if you want )

Anyways I don't believe that organized religion is a fundemently bad thing since looking at this from today's relatively peaceful time religion serves no other reason than to unite us into one big community. Sure hundread's of years ago, religion devided alot of groups of people but nowadays with acts such as "Nostra Aetate" ( Talks about how each religion needs to respect each other ) and the constant attempts at unifying all forms of christianity under one leader ( The Pope ) make this much more clear ( That organised religion is about peace not war )

At a personal level religion helps me feel part of a community. Today I went to Church and you know what, I actually felt like I was in a commuinty ( The type you feel when you're gathered with your family ).

I know that religion can be seen as if it's still stuck in the 1500's but it really isn't, it's now more willing to accept other people's beliefs even if they may not be in line with ours ( And hence peace is number 1 on each religion's agenda )



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Mr.Playstation said:
Hey Christian here :P.

I would like to debate point six where you said that organised religion is fundemently bad thing ( I agree with points 1 and I guess point 7 so feel free to start a debate on the others or even these two, if you want )

Anyways I don't believe that organized religion is a fundemently bad thing since looking at this from today's relatively peaceful time religion serves no other reason than to unite us into one big community. Sure hundread's of years ago, religion devided alot of groups of people but nowadays with acts such as "Nostra Aetate" ( Talks about how each religion needs to respect each other ) and the constant attempts at unifying all forms of christianity under one leader ( The Pope ) make this much more clear ( That organised religion is about peace not war )

At a personal level religion helps me feel part of a community. Today I went to Church and you know what, I actually felt like I was in a commuinty ( The type you feel when you're gathered with your family ).

I know that religion can be seen as if it's still stuck in the 1500's but it really isn't, it's now more willing to accept other people's beliefs even if they may not be in line with ours ( And hence peace is number 1 on each religion's agenda )

You're taking a pretty narrow view of religion.  You are ignoring that the entire middle east, and large parts of Africa, that are suffering incredibly due to the influence of religion.  Then you have the mass pedophilia of priests whom the catholic church has fought to protect, acts of prejudice against gays, the insistence of taking away individual rights, etc.  There are still many places where you can be killed for believing the wrong thing.

My issue with organized religion is that it fundamentally teaches you to obey.  It teaches you that someone else is qualified to instruct you on what this all powerful being wants.  The catholic church, where the pope is literally viewed as divine (and I like this pope but divine he ain't), is particularly dangerous in its heirarchical approach.  The idea that the clergy is godly and to be implicitly trusted is why they've gotten away the abuse that they've gotten.

All of this is not to say that religion has no good value.  I know some organizations do charitable work, and it can be valued for the individual.  But, I think that these services can be rendered without the dogma and heirarchy that can, and have frequently, been abused to terrible ends.  I've felt a sense of community in many places without religion being involved. 

I think the good of religion can be done without religion.  However, I think the bad done by religion cannot be done without it (or at least would be much harder to do).  To beat up on the Catholic Church some more, can you think of ANY organization that could survive such a scandal as the catholic church did and still survive?  

Edit: Just to clarify if it's unclear, I don't think that everything done by organized religion is bad.  However, I think the potential for abuse created by the system outweighs by far its potential benefits.



IMO the God is exist, but we know Him in different names. That's why we have so many religion in the world.



A handheld gamer only (for now).

Vor said:
IMO the God is exist, but we know Him in different names. That's why we have so many religion in the world.

Do you have justification for this belief?