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Forums - General Discussion - The Debate About Religion Topic

 

Has this topic influenced you at all?

I was a non-believer, and... 2 12.50%
 
I was a non-believer, and I still am. 7 43.75%
 
I was a non-believer, but... 0 0%
 
I was a non-believer, but now I believe. 3 18.75%
 
I was a believer, and now I don't believe. 1 6.25%
 
I was a believer, but thi... 0 0%
 
I was a believer, and I still am. 3 18.75%
 
I was a believer, and now... 0 0%
 
I am agnostic, and this t... 0 0%
 
I am agnostic, and this t... 0 0%
 
Total:16

Seems noone is really trying to give evidence of a god. Kind of disappointing.



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Religion is means of power and/or financial gain for those at the top, and a crutch for the rest who follow.



JWeinCom said:
Seems noone is really trying to give evidence of a god. Kind of disappointing.

I think the best arguments for God are the universe itself and maybe the Cosmological Argument.



Can't wait for The Zelder Scrolls 3: Breath of The Wild Hunt!

Esiar said:
JWeinCom said:
Seems noone is really trying to give evidence of a god. Kind of disappointing.

I think the best arguments for God are the universe itself and maybe the Cosmological Argument.


The universe itself would not indicate any creator.  Even if it did, you'd have to make an incredible stretch to go from "the universe might have had a creator" to "God (I'm assuming you mean Judeo Christain god since you used capital G) exists", and he has the traits described in the bible.  

As for the cosmological argument, it's self defeating.  It goes something like everything has a cause, the universe has a cause, so the universe has a cause, and that cause is god.  So, everything has to have a cause... Ummmmmm... except god.  

Basically, the first premise, everything has a cause, conflicts with the last premise, there is something that happened without a cause.  And of course you can say "oh but god is outside of time", but now you have to prove that something can exist outside of time.  

Then if you want to use that argument to prove any specific god, you have to explain why you would be able to make any determinations about the nature of the uncaused cause.  The cosmological argument, at best, gets you to a deistic god, and even that's a huge stretch.  

And, we do not know that the universe "began to exist" as is put forth in many versions of the argument.  The current understanding of the universe's origin, The Big Bang, does not really suggest it was the beginning of the universe.  The Big Bang Theory supposes that the universe existed as a singularity, and then it exploded into the universe as we know it.



JWeinCom said:
Esiar said:

I think the best arguments for God are the universe itself and maybe the Cosmological Argument.


The universe itself would not indicate any creator.  Even if it did, you'd have to make an incredible stretch to go from "the universe might have had a creator" to "God (I'm assuming you mean Judeo Christain god since you used capital G) exists", and he has the traits described in the bible.  

As for the cosmological argument, it's self defeating.  It goes something like everything has a cause, the universe has a cause, so the universe has a cause, and that cause is god.  So, everything has to have a cause... Ummmmmm... except god.  

Basically, the first premise, everything has a cause, conflicts with the last premise, there is something that happened without a cause.  And of course you can say "oh but god is outside of time", but now you have to prove that something can exist outside of time.  

Then if you want to use that argument to prove any specific god, you have to explain why you would be able to make any determinations about the nature of the uncaused cause.  The cosmological argument, at best, gets you to a deistic god, and even that's a huge stretch.  

And, we do not know that the universe "began to exist" as is put forth in many versions of the argument.  The current understanding of the universe's origin, The Big Bang, does not really suggest it was the beginning of the universe.  The Big Bang Theory supposes that the universe existed as a singularity, and then it exploded into the universe as we know it.

The Universe thing kinda goes into the fine tuning argument. Which, I think simplified, would sound like: It's extremely unlikely for life like Earth's to come about by mere chance, since there are tons of different variables that if altered a tiny bit, make it impossible. With it being hugely unlikely to come by chance, it makes more sense to conclude that it was deliberate. And a deliberate effect implies a will, and a will implies that a personal being caused it.

But the Bible definitely does not go that in-depth, and says "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". So there's really not much I should say on the subject, since I believe that you know God exists in your conscience, but for whatever reason you are denying it (The root is the love of sin, but how that manifests is different)

And for the Cosmological Argument, I think one of the points you made is flawed. The first premise says that everything that begins to exist has a cause, not that everything that exists has a cause, so God would not apply under that premise, since God is the creator of time (Genesis 1:1 mentions a beginning, meaning an absolute start), he would need to exist outside of it, meaning there is no beginning for him, meaning he didn't begin to exist. So does not require a cause. If one were to say that, if time had an absolute beginning, and that the cause of it doesn't exist outside of the boundaries of time, that would be saying that time existed before time.

As for whether the Universe had a beginning, I did find an answer once, but I don't remember, so I'd have to look into it again.



Can't wait for The Zelder Scrolls 3: Breath of The Wild Hunt!

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Esiar said:
JWeinCom said:


The universe itself would not indicate any creator.  Even if it did, you'd have to make an incredible stretch to go from "the universe might have had a creator" to "God (I'm assuming you mean Judeo Christain god since you used capital G) exists", and he has the traits described in the bible.  

As for the cosmological argument, it's self defeating.  It goes something like everything has a cause, the universe has a cause, so the universe has a cause, and that cause is god.  So, everything has to have a cause... Ummmmmm... except god.  

Basically, the first premise, everything has a cause, conflicts with the last premise, there is something that happened without a cause.  And of course you can say "oh but god is outside of time", but now you have to prove that something can exist outside of time.  

Then if you want to use that argument to prove any specific god, you have to explain why you would be able to make any determinations about the nature of the uncaused cause.  The cosmological argument, at best, gets you to a deistic god, and even that's a huge stretch.  

And, we do not know that the universe "began to exist" as is put forth in many versions of the argument.  The current understanding of the universe's origin, The Big Bang, does not really suggest it was the beginning of the universe.  The Big Bang Theory supposes that the universe existed as a singularity, and then it exploded into the universe as we know it.

The Universe thing kinda goes into the fine tuning argument. Which, I think simplified, would sound like: It's extremely unlikely for life like Earth's to come about by mere chance, since there are tons of different variables that if altered a tiny bit, make it impossible. With it being hugely unlikely to come by chance, it makes more sense to conclude that it was deliberate. And a deliberate effect implies a will, and a will implies that a personal being caused it.

But the Bible definitely does not go that in-depth, and says "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". So there's really not much I should say on the subject, since I believe that you know God exists in your conscience, but for whatever reason you are denying it (The root is the love of sin, but how that manifests is different)

And for the Cosmological Argument, I think one of the points you made is flawed. The first premise says that everything that begins to exist has a cause, not that everything that exists has a cause, so God would not apply under that premise, since God is the creator of time (Genesis 1:1 mentions a beginning, meaning an absolute start), he would need to exist outside of it, meaning there is no beginning for him, meaning he didn't begin to exist. So does not require a cause. If one were to say that, if time had an absolute beginning, and that the cause of it doesn't exist outside of the boundaries of time, that would be saying that time existed before time.

As for whether the Universe had a beginning, I did find an answer once, but I don't remember, so I'd have to look into it again.


The Universe thing kinda goes into the fine tuning argument. Which, I think simplified, would sound like: It's extremely unlikely for life like Earth's to come about by mere chance, since there are tons of different variables that if altered a tiny bit, make it impossible. With it being hugely unlikely to come by chance, it makes more sense to conclude that it was deliberate. And a deliberate effect implies a will, and a will implies that a personal being caused it.

Fine tuned for what?  Humans?

The Earth's diameter is less than one trillionth of one light year.  The observable universe is about 13.8 billion light years.  

What this means is that the universe is several trillion times larger than it needed to be (even if we assume the Earth needsa bit of breathing room).   It's like if you were making a dog house, and you decided to make it the size of the Jupiter.  

Humans have existed on the planet Earth for 2.5 million years of its 13 billion year lifespan.  That's about .001% of the Earth's lifespan.

So, if God made the Earth specifically for humans, it is several trillion times too large, and the Earth has existed for several thousands times longer than it needed to.  This is hardly what I would consider fine tuning.

Of course, the fine tuning is from a human perspective.  If the universe was tuned differently, it's possible another form of life would have developed.  And, if that lifeform reached sentience, it would say "hey isn't it amazing how the universe was created in such a way that I can exist".  In other words, the universe only seems deliberate if you assume it was made specifically for humans.  It's a circular argument.  The size of the universe indicates it was not.

It's like if you won the lottery.  If you won, those numbers will be very significant to you, and it may seem miraculous that those numbers came up.  To anyone who didn't win, it was just a random sequence.

As for the odds, I'm not sure how it is determined that it is unlikely that humans could exist.  There are an estimated 200 billion galaxies in the universe.  Assuming the galaxies have the same number of stars as the milky way, there would be roughly 100 octillion stars.  If we assume the planet/star ratio is consistend throughout the universe, there would be about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe.  That's a lot of planets.  It doesn't seem incredibly unlikely. And of course, if God's purpose was to take a personal interest in the lies of one species which has existed for an exceptionally short length of time he made a comically large universe.  

As for the universe, we don't know if this is the only one.  I don't know enough about physics to speculate about the multiverse, but it's an idea that many physicists see as worthy of note.  So there could be many universes.  Some of which do and some of which are not appropriate for human life.

In other words the idea that it is unlikely is a determination that cannot have possibly been made with the amount of data we have.  The idea that the universe was created just for humans is extremely illogical considering the data we have.

But the Bible definitely does not go that in-depth, and says "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". So there's really not much I should say on the subject, since I believe that you know God exists in your conscience, but for whatever reason you are denying it (The root is the love of sin, but how that manifests is different)

So, you are calling me a liar and a sinner?  This is a personal attack, and I'm not going to stand for it.  Do not claim to know what is in my head.  And if you think you know what I believe because your magic book tells you, then you are a wonderful demonstration of the way religion can poison a mind and the dangers of taking the Bible literally.  Do not presume to know what I believe.  That level of arrogance is simply astounding.

Seriously, if you think you know what I think or feel DO NOT RESPOND any further.  Because any sort of rational conversation is impossible from that point.  If you already know what I think better than I do, than anything I say is irrelevant.  If you're going to just say "nuh uh you're a liar and you really love jeebus" then you have left the realm of rationality. I have been polite so far, and have tried my best to listen openly to what you've said.  If you are not willing to extend the same courtesy, we're done here.  I made this topic for discussion and debate.  If you want to preach nonsense and insult people, find somewhere else.

And for the Cosmological Argument, I think one of the points you made is flawed. The first premise says that everything that begins to exist has a cause, not that everything that exists has a cause, so God would not apply under that premise, since God is the creator of time (Genesis 1:1 mentions a beginning, meaning an absolute start), he would need to exist outside of it, meaning there is no beginning for him, meaning he didn't begin to exist. So does not require a cause. If one were to say that, if time had an absolute beginning, and that the cause of it doesn't exist outside of the boundaries of time, that would be saying that time existed before time.

The argument has been presented in several ways.  The "begins to exist" was added later once the flaws I brought up were pointed out.  And you are again making a circular argument.  You are using the bible to prove god.  What it said in Genesis is irrelevant until you can prove that the bible is a valid source, and it is not. 
You cannot, with no good reason, exempt god from the restriction of beginning.  We do not have any evidence that it is possible for something to exist outside of time, and we have no good reason to believe it is possible.  Even adding "begins to exist" does not escape the problem.  
And why would you assume the cause is personal?  Why is your god the only god that could possibly exist outside of time?  Why can't multiple things exist out of time?  If your god can just exist outside of time, then why not other gods?  Why can't there be two?  Twenty?  A billion?  Why is this cause intelligent?  Even if the argument wasn't flawed, it does not take you to a theistic god, much less one that cares about what humans do.  
As I said in the beginning, and you agreed to, a deistic god is utterly uninteresting.  So, you have a long way to go before the cosmological argument proves anything either of us would care about.

As for whether the Universe had a beginning, I did find an answer once, but I don't remember, so I'd have to look into it again.

Uhhhhh... yeah... This would be a nobel prize winning discovery if someone could prove that the universe (or the matter in the pre bang singularity) had a definite beginning, that'd be kind of a big deal.  I'm fairly certain nobody has proven this yet.  Keep in mind that I'm using the word universe to mean all of the matter and energy that exists.  The "universe" as in the current configuration of this matter and energy (and dark matter and energy and all that) most likely did have a beginning.  However, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has been able to show or indicate that the matter and energy had not previously existed in another configuration, or that the stuff that makes up our universe had a beginning. 


JWeinCom said:
Seems noone is really trying to give evidence of a god. Kind of disappointing.


You can't give which you don't have. Besides, to have faith really means to believe without proof.



JWeinCom said:


Ok.  So for clarification, do you believe in the Bible literally?  Like Noah really had an arc and angels really came to earth, or do you believe in it on a metaphorical level?   What does saved mean to you, and what does it mean to be not saved?  

I just ask because Christians vary widely on whether or not Hell is literal, and whether or not the Bible iteslf should be taken literally.  After that, I'd be curious as to what you feel is obvious proof for the Bible.


As a muslim. We reject the bible -despite many truths in it- because of the man-made alterations over the years. It's why it's an easy target for critics of religion.

As for Noah, I do believe he's real, the story of the arc is real... Noah being drunkard is completely rejected however in Islam. That's a fabrication. Actually anything about 'prophets sinning' in all forms of the old and new testaments is rejected.

Yes I believe angels come, came and are on Earth.

 

 

I always feel left out when atheists go after the easy target.



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

Vor said:


I find out that both Moslem, Christian, and Jew have similar history. So I assume there was a one single religion in the past but somehow it split to our current religion. But this is merely my opinion.


In a muslim perspective, It's not that it used to be one religion. It was always one religion but the theme of monotheism was always screwed up over a period of time. Worshipping of idols and making them partners to god, and turning Jesus himself into god are examples of that... Despite God's message always being oneness.

In other words God's message kept getting corrupted between Adam (pbuh) all the way to Mohammed (pbuh).



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

Esiar said:
JWeinCom said:

And from an objective perspective, Judaism preceeded Christianity.  I think Jews would probably disagree with your assessment, so in this case I think the neutral perspective makes more sense.  

They would definitely disagree. They would say that Jesus never fulfilled the prophecies, and that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism (and the secular perspective is similar to this). But again, what I said is just the Christian perspective. Islam has a different perspective: What I usually hear is that being that Judaism and Christianity are offshoot's of Islam. The prophets before Jesus taught Islam, and men corrupted their words and that turned into Judaism, and Jesus came and taught Islam, coming with the Gospel. and they tried to kill him, but God saved him, and everyone was decieved to believe he was crucified, which lead to Christianity, the corruption of the Gospel, and Paul the Apostle coming up, etc., and that Muhammad brought the restoration of what the prophets before him truly taught.

A Christian isn't going to agree with that, but it's what Muslims believe (Unless they don't believe that; If there's a Muslim here who wants to correct me, they can if they want to of course).


This is accurate/bolded

And before anyone freaks out ZOMG IZZLAM... islam means the submission to one god. And submission to one god has always been the message of all prophets. In a islamic perspective anyway.



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson