Esiar said:
The Universe thing kinda goes into the fine tuning argument. Which, I think simplified, would sound like: It's extremely unlikely for life like Earth's to come about by mere chance, since there are tons of different variables that if altered a tiny bit, make it impossible. With it being hugely unlikely to come by chance, it makes more sense to conclude that it was deliberate. And a deliberate effect implies a will, and a will implies that a personal being caused it. But the Bible definitely does not go that in-depth, and says "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". So there's really not much I should say on the subject, since I believe that you know God exists in your conscience, but for whatever reason you are denying it (The root is the love of sin, but how that manifests is different) And for the Cosmological Argument, I think one of the points you made is flawed. The first premise says that everything that begins to exist has a cause, not that everything that exists has a cause, so God would not apply under that premise, since God is the creator of time (Genesis 1:1 mentions a beginning, meaning an absolute start), he would need to exist outside of it, meaning there is no beginning for him, meaning he didn't begin to exist. So does not require a cause. If one were to say that, if time had an absolute beginning, and that the cause of it doesn't exist outside of the boundaries of time, that would be saying that time existed before time. As for whether the Universe had a beginning, I did find an answer once, but I don't remember, so I'd have to look into it again. |
The Universe thing kinda goes into the fine tuning argument. Which, I think simplified, would sound like: It's extremely unlikely for life like Earth's to come about by mere chance, since there are tons of different variables that if altered a tiny bit, make it impossible. With it being hugely unlikely to come by chance, it makes more sense to conclude that it was deliberate. And a deliberate effect implies a will, and a will implies that a personal being caused it.
Fine tuned for what? Humans?
The Earth's diameter is less than one trillionth of one light year. The observable universe is about 13.8 billion light years.
What this means is that the universe is several trillion times larger than it needed to be (even if we assume the Earth needsa bit of breathing room). It's like if you were making a dog house, and you decided to make it the size of the Jupiter.
Humans have existed on the planet Earth for 2.5 million years of its 13 billion year lifespan. That's about .001% of the Earth's lifespan.
So, if God made the Earth specifically for humans, it is several trillion times too large, and the Earth has existed for several thousands times longer than it needed to. This is hardly what I would consider fine tuning.
Of course, the fine tuning is from a human perspective. If the universe was tuned differently, it's possible another form of life would have developed. And, if that lifeform reached sentience, it would say "hey isn't it amazing how the universe was created in such a way that I can exist". In other words, the universe only seems deliberate if you assume it was made specifically for humans. It's a circular argument. The size of the universe indicates it was not.
It's like if you won the lottery. If you won, those numbers will be very significant to you, and it may seem miraculous that those numbers came up. To anyone who didn't win, it was just a random sequence.
As for the odds, I'm not sure how it is determined that it is unlikely that humans could exist. There are an estimated 200 billion galaxies in the universe. Assuming the galaxies have the same number of stars as the milky way, there would be roughly 100 octillion stars. If we assume the planet/star ratio is consistend throughout the universe, there would be about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe. That's a lot of planets. It doesn't seem incredibly unlikely. And of course, if God's purpose was to take a personal interest in the lies of one species which has existed for an exceptionally short length of time he made a comically large universe.
As for the universe, we don't know if this is the only one. I don't know enough about physics to speculate about the multiverse, but it's an idea that many physicists see as worthy of note. So there could be many universes. Some of which do and some of which are not appropriate for human life.
In other words the idea that it is unlikely is a determination that cannot have possibly been made with the amount of data we have. The idea that the universe was created just for humans is extremely illogical considering the data we have.
But the Bible definitely does not go that in-depth, and says "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". So there's really not much I should say on the subject, since I believe that you know God exists in your conscience, but for whatever reason you are denying it (The root is the love of sin, but how that manifests is different)
So, you are calling me a liar and a sinner? This is a personal attack, and I'm not going to stand for it. Do not claim to know what is in my head. And if you think you know what I believe because your magic book tells you, then you are a wonderful demonstration of the way religion can poison a mind and the dangers of taking the Bible literally. Do not presume to know what I believe. That level of arrogance is simply astounding.
Seriously, if you think you know what I think or feel DO NOT RESPOND any further. Because any sort of rational conversation is impossible from that point. If you already know what I think better than I do, than anything I say is irrelevant. If you're going to just say "nuh uh you're a liar and you really love jeebus" then you have left the realm of rationality. I have been polite so far, and have tried my best to listen openly to what you've said. If you are not willing to extend the same courtesy, we're done here. I made this topic for discussion and debate. If you want to preach nonsense and insult people, find somewhere else.
And for the Cosmological Argument, I think one of the points you made is flawed. The first premise says that everything that begins to exist has a cause, not that everything that exists has a cause, so God would not apply under that premise, since God is the creator of time (Genesis 1:1 mentions a beginning, meaning an absolute start), he would need to exist outside of it, meaning there is no beginning for him, meaning he didn't begin to exist. So does not require a cause. If one were to say that, if time had an absolute beginning, and that the cause of it doesn't exist outside of the boundaries of time, that would be saying that time existed before time.
