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Forums - Politics Discussion - Death sentence. Yes or no?

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sundin13 on 25 June 2015
McDonaldsGuy said:

1. Name 5 prisoners who asked for the death sentence over life without parole. Actually this shouldn't be too hard but do it anyway. Do the research - you will see that the VAST majority (as in 95-98% - which by ANY definition is "almost always") prefer life without parole to the death penalty. Prison isn't even that bad - they get drugs, access to TV/internet/books/video games, get to do fun activities like paintball, mini-golf, and bowling. Most get conjugal visits (Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez, and Charles Manson all had GFs/wives while in prison). Your image of prison is the image of chain gangs, Shawshank redemption style rape, people in a cell with nothing but bread and water. That isn't how prison is man, not these days.

2. Name 5 innocent people who were put to death (in America) since 1976

I've showed you the ACTUAL numbers, not ridiculous "studies." Start showing me actual results. You keep saying innocent people are put to death but I am not seeing any names. I've given you direct examples, aka facts, reality.

And Cornelius Lewish doesn't exist according to you - people simply cannot prefer life over death (except for the 95% of the time they do).

By the way I do think death penalty needs reform - there needs to be a "no shadow of a doubt" clause for the death penalty. As in 100% we know for sure. For example, if OJ Simpson were found guilty in 1994 he still wouldn't eligible for the death penalty because there is too much doubt. On the other hand, Jeffrey Dahmer would 10000% be eligibile.


1. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90935

According to this, 75 inmates chose death over life between 1993-2002. In fact, the very first execution since 1976 was someone who chose death over life...

Also, I'd like to see where you are getting your 95-98% statistics.

1.5. Your putting words in my mouth. I believe I said something along the lines of "Prison is far from ideal", not "Prison is a burning hellscape"...

2. As I said, when appeals are over, a case is closed. DNA evidence isn't tested, new facts aren't brought to light. Its only logical that you wouldn't find these people innocent after they are put to death. However, logic implies that innocent people have been put to death when you look at the amount of people who have been let off from death row.

2.5. Cornelius Lewish: When did I say he didn't exist? What are you even going on about here? I never said nobody prefers life imprisonment over death. I said that some prefer life and some prefer death. Either way, it is punishment and either way, these people will not be among the general population without a pardon which are not taken lightly.

 

I believe I have stood by every point that I have made. You are hung up on the idea that the death penalty is not significantly worse than life imprisonment  (which again, is arguable either way), however, that is only one piece to the puzzle. Even without it, there is a strong case against the death penalty and the only case for the death penalty is the equivalent of Hammurabi's Code.



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McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
sundin13 said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

1. Name 5 prisoners who asked for the death sentence over life without parole. Actually this shouldn't be too hard but do it anyway. Do the research - you will see that the VAST majority (as in 95-98% - which by ANY definition is "almost always") prefer life without parole to the death penalty. Prison isn't even that bad - they get drugs, access to TV/internet/books/video games, get to do fun activities like paintball, mini-golf, and bowling. Most get conjugal visits (Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez, and Charles Manson all had GFs/wives while in prison). Your image of prison is the image of chain gangs, Shawshank redemption style rape, people in a cell with nothing but bread and water. That isn't how prison is man, not these days.

2. Name 5 innocent people who were put to death (in America) since 1976

I've showed you the ACTUAL numbers, not ridiculous "studies." Start showing me actual results. You keep saying innocent people are put to death but I am not seeing any names. I've given you direct examples, aka facts, reality.

And Cornelius Lewish doesn't exist according to you - people simply cannot prefer life over death (except for the 95% of the time they do).

By the way I do think death penalty needs reform - there needs to be a "no shadow of a doubt" clause for the death penalty. As in 100% we know for sure. For example, if OJ Simpson were found guilty in 1994 he still wouldn't eligible for the death penalty because there is too much doubt. On the other hand, Jeffrey Dahmer would 10000% be eligibile.


1. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90935

According to this, 75 inmates chose death over life between 1993-2002. In fact, the very first execution since 1976 was someone who chose death over life...

Also, I'd like to see where you are getting your 95-98% statistics.

1.5. Your putting words in my mouth. I believe I said something along the lines of "Prison is far from ideal", not "Prison is a burning hellscape"...

2. As I said, when appeals are over, a case is closed. DNA evidence isn't tested, new facts aren't brought to light. Its only logical that you wouldn't find these people innocent after they are put to death. However, logic implies that innocent people have been put to death when you look at the amount of people who have been let off from death row.

2.5. Cornelius Lewish: When did I say he didn't exist? What are you even going on about here? I never said nobody prefers life imprisonment over death. I said that some prefer life and some prefer death. Either way, it is punishment and either way, these people will not be among the general population without a pardon which are not taken lightly.

 

I believe I have stood by every point that I have made. You are hung up on the idea that the death penalty is not significantly worse than life imprisonment  (which again, is arguable either way), however, that is only one piece to the puzzle. Even without it, there is a strong case against the death penalty and the only case for the death penalty is the equivalent of Hammurabi's Code.

Lol only 75. There are 3,002 death row inmates today (so this isn't even counting all of them from 1976). 75 is 2.5% of 3,002.

Lol I just lol'd.



Normchacho on 25 June 2015
McDonaldsGuy said:
Normchacho said:
The death penalty really doesn't make sense to me...

1. It costs more than life in prison. (to the people bringing up appeals, when someone is sentenced to death their case goes through a mandatory "automatic appeal" to be as sure as possible that nobody missed anything).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2014/05/01/considering-the-death-penalty-your-tax-dollars-at-work/

2. The death penalty doesn't deter crime.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/04/30/theres-still-no-evidence-that-executions-deter-criminals/

3. We do sometimes execute innocent people. This fact alone should be enough to stop the use of the death penalty because there is NO acceptable margin of error when it comes to execution.

http://www.criminaljusticedegreesguide.com/features/10-infamous-cases-of-wrongful-execution.html

Your third link pretty much proves me right: DNA has made it extremely improbable for innocent people to be executed. 15 years ago I would have been against the death penalty except for extreme cases, but now I feel it is accurate enough.

Oh yeah? There are currently 32 death penalty cases being reviewed due to flawed testimony surrounding forensic evidence between 1980 and 2000. 14 of those convicted have already been executed or died in prison.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4d1ac1226ca240319c3ac656ae1b246f/report-doj-fbi-acknowledge-flawed-testimony-unit

I also present you with the case of Cameron Todd Williams. Executed in 2004 for the murders of his three daughters after intentionally setting their house on fire. Except of course he didn't actually do that.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/03/cameron_todd_willingham_prosecutor_john_jackson_charges_corrupt_prosecution.html

"accurate enough"...Those two words represent what I feel is an insurmountable difference in this disscussion. My opinion, if that there is no such thing as "accurate enough" when it comes to the state putting people to death. especially when there is no real societal benefit to putting people to death in the first place.



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sundin13 on 25 June 2015
McDonaldsGuy said:

Lol only 75. There are 3,002 death row inmates today (so this isn't even counting all of them from 1976). 75 is 2.5% of 3,002.

Lol I just lol'd.


If you look at the amount of executions that actually took place between 1993-2002, you would find that the number of voluntary executions is around 11% (13% if you broaden the scope outside those years). We can go even further to look into the suicide of those in detention centers and see that the rate of suicide is about 300 per year, but no, I'm sure you are right. Prison is a wonderful place. Its basically Chuck-E-Cheese... No one would pick death over spending time in prison.

Still, you asked for 5, I gave you about 100, and then you brush of my 100. How far can you move the goalposts? Tune in next post to find out...

EDIT: Thanks for the sources Normchacho!



McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
Normchacho said:
McDonaldsGuy said:
Normchacho said:
The death penalty really doesn't make sense to me...

1. It costs more than life in prison. (to the people bringing up appeals, when someone is sentenced to death their case goes through a mandatory "automatic appeal" to be as sure as possible that nobody missed anything).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2014/05/01/considering-the-death-penalty-your-tax-dollars-at-work/

2. The death penalty doesn't deter crime.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/04/30/theres-still-no-evidence-that-executions-deter-criminals/

3. We do sometimes execute innocent people. This fact alone should be enough to stop the use of the death penalty because there is NO acceptable margin of error when it comes to execution.

http://www.criminaljusticedegreesguide.com/features/10-infamous-cases-of-wrongful-execution.html

Your third link pretty much proves me right: DNA has made it extremely improbable for innocent people to be executed. 15 years ago I would have been against the death penalty except for extreme cases, but now I feel it is accurate enough.

Oh yeah? There are currently 32 death penalty cases being reviewed due to flawed testimony surrounding forensic evidence between 1980 and 2000. 14 of those convicted have already been executed or died in prison.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4d1ac1226ca240319c3ac656ae1b246f/report-doj-fbi-acknowledge-flawed-testimony-unit

I also present you with the case of Cameron Todd Williams. Executed in 2004 for the murders of his three daughters after intentionally setting their house on fire. Except of course he didn't actually do that.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/03/cameron_todd_willingham_prosecutor_john_jackson_charges_corrupt_prosecution.html

"accurate enough"...Those two words represent what I feel is an insurmountable difference in this disscussion. My opinion, if that there is no such thing as "accurate enough" when it comes to the state putting people to death. especially when there is no real societal benefit to putting people to death in the first place.

As I said, I would have been totally against the death penalty (except for cases like serial/spree killers) about 15 years ago. You keep proving my point - DNA is helping free these people.

And I have read about Cameron Todd Williams and I feel it should go to court again to get the truth about, but as it stands no inncoent person has yet to be executed, or at least, with DNA now available.

I also feel that prosecutors should be held accountable for purposely falsifying evidence - they are not. There is a problem with the prosecution, not the death penalty itself. Your example isn't really any good anyhow (the FBI one, not the Cameron).



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PxlStorm on 25 June 2015

I'd rather be sentenced to death than going to prison. If you're getting executed, your pain will be over quickly. Being 20-30 years in jail is a mental torture which I would not want to experience. So no, I am against death penalty as going to jail is way worse.



McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
sundin13 said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

Lol only 75. There are 3,002 death row inmates today (so this isn't even counting all of them from 1976). 75 is 2.5% of 3,002.

Lol I just lol'd.


If you look at the amount of executions that actually took place between 1993-2002, you would find that the number of voluntary executions is around 11% (13% if you broaden the scope outside those years). We can go even further to look into the suicide of those in detention centers and see that the rate of suicide is about 300 per year, but no, I'm sure you are right. Prison is a wonderful place. Its basically Chuck-E-Cheese... No one would pick death over spending time in prison.

Still, you asked for 5, I gave you about 100, and then you brush of my 100. How far can you move the goalposts? Tune in next post to find out...

EDIT: Thanks for the sources Normchacho!

Ted Bundy with his wife, after sex (I prefer sex to Chuck-E-Cheese): https://theodorerobertcowellnelsonbundy.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ted-bundy-with-daughter-and-ugly-disgusting-woman-who-bore-her-the-cunt-who-abandoned-him-at-his-time-of-need-i-hope-she-contracted-an-std-and-led-a-miserable-life-after-ted-died-4.jpg

Charles Manson, 80 years old banging a 26 year old: http://assets.rollingstone.com/assets/2013/article/is-charles-manson-getting-married-20131120/19948/_original/1035x713-20131119-manson-x1800-1384973102.jpg

It's not Chuck-E-Cheese obviously, but it's a lot better than death. Thus, the vast majority (and 89% is still a vast majority) prefer life over death.



Harkins1721 on 25 June 2015

Well if hes killed then we dont pay for him to stay alive. If you are 100% at fault for killing someone. IMO meaning on camera showing the intent and full awareness of waht ur doing then yes I have no problem with it. I can see why many do.



McDonaldsGuy on 25 June 2015
PxlStorm said:
I'd rather be sentenced to death than going to prison. If you're getting executed, your pain will be over quickly. Being 20-30 years in jail is a mental torture which I would not want to experience. So no, I am against death penalty as going to jail is way worse.


You think that, but when death is hanging over you, you think differently.

A lot of spree killers commit suicide right after their spree killing - but the ones who don't, realize they want to live. For example, James Holmes was suicidal at first but now is fighting for everything to avoid the death penalty.

When your in prison, you still make friends, you get letters from people, you still do drugs (smuggling drugs in prison is as easy as 1 2 3), you still have hope to escape/freed, etc. etc.

You have no frame of reference so you can't really comment. The people who DO have a frame of reference almost always choose life over death.



Aeolus451 on 25 June 2015

 First of all, keeping someone in prison for life is extremely costly and there's a chance that the person can be released back into civilization through politics, deals with police or policy changes. I rather use that money to rehabilitate/educate non-violent criminals and the less serious offenders. 

I'm all for an expedited death sentence for raptists, molesters, mass murderers, serial killers and politicians found guilty of corruption.