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Forums - Gaming Discussion - If Wii U could do PS4 graphics at 720p, would that be enough for you?

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Yes, that'd be satisfactory 130 31.18%
 
Still wouldn't be good enough 84 20.14%
 
Wii U's graphics are already fine 203 48.68%
 
Total:417
curl-6 said:
bonzobanana said:


Remember that 32MB is there also as the 1T memory in wii mode too and must electronically appear to be identical and that memory was more about low latency than memory bandwidth. The wii u has to read and write constantly to 2GB of memory with a bandwidth of 12.8gb/s. You can put some speed critical parts into the 32MB of edram memory especially the frame buffer but ultimately all the wii u can do is move data about in the 2GB of main memory at 12.8gb/s. 32MB is only 1/64th of actual memory. For comparison the main memory of 360 is 22.4gb/s and the bandwidth between edram and gpu is 32gb/s. PS3 is 22.4gb/s to graphics memory and 25.6 gb/s to main memory. So even the ps3 can do 4 operations approx to its main and graphic memory in the time the wii u can do one to its DDR memory. Shinshei said the 360 and wii u edram was comparable but the increase in size made it far more useful. To meet the wii's memory bandwidth requirements it needs to be about 4 gb/s approx while the wii u gpu is operating at 240mhz so probably about 10gb/s absolute minimum when operating at full speed. How much bandwith has it really got? No one seems to know so its an area of wild speculation but it has to appear identical to 1t ram when the gpu is slowed to 240mhz for wii mode. If Shinshei is saying its similar then perhaps 32gb/s but I've seen 40gb/s and 60gb/s also mentioned. This is probably linked to the debate about whether the wii u gpu is 176 gflops or 352 gflops. The wii u isn't performing anywhere near the claimed 352 gflops figure and not consuming the power either and would be horrifically bottlenecked by 12.8gb/s memory access. I'm thinking the eDRAM speed is actually at the higher end of speculation and the gpu is at 176 gflops this makes sense regarding the performance of the console.

The xbone needs about 125 gb/s memory bandwidth to match the 176gb/s of ps4 considering it has a 40% weaker gpu than ps4 and most of main memory is occupied with graphics data movement so its not bottlenecked. xbox one memory is 68 gb/s plus there is also the issue that many xbox one games suffer from more frame drops even when run at a lower resolution despite a slightly faster cpu setup than ps4. So clearly the 32MB of SRAM is not enough to fulfill the shortfall despite being far,far faster than eDRAM. 

The 10MB edram on 360 was enough to give it a frame rate advantage over many ps3 games slightly as long the resolution was a fit for 10MB, the ps3 supports a much wider range of 1080p and 3D games that require larger frame buffers. 

Also that 10MB edram for 1/2GB in 360 is a higher ratio than 32MB for 2GB admittedly the operating system may have less call on time critical memory access although I'm only guessing that. 

Let's face it the consoles without small pockets of high speed memory but with reasonable bandwidth for main memory and/or graphics memory achieve a lot more. The PS4 clearly does, as does the ps3 despite having a much weaker gpu than 360 for properly optimised games as did the original xbox the generation before. A small amount of high bandwidth memory is really restricting for ambitious games and seems to have a common symptom, frame rate drops. Both xbox one and wii u suffer from it horribly. The 360 doesn't but then its main memory wasn't slow it was almost twice the bandwidth of wii u memory so for the 360 the eDRAM was a performance bonus that improved the console's games it wasn't used as a solution to using cheaper slower main memory.

Also the wii punched above its weight despite only having a 11gflops gpu (xenoblade) and that design has a dedicated 1meg texture cache, 2meg frame buffer, 24MB 1T-RAM and 64GB of DDR buffer memory that's 4 pools of memory in addition to all the other smaller caches in its design. Obviously mainly inherited from the gamecube it was based on but still huge bandwidth all things considered.

S

Wii emulation doesn't mean at all that the memory bandwidth must be the same or even similar.

As to the eDRAM not being enough, at least one dev begs to differ:

http://www.vg247.com/2012/11/05/wii-u-avoids-ram-bottleneck-says-nano-assault-dev/

http://hdwarriors.com/why-the-wii-u-is-probably-more-capable-than-you-think-it-is/

http://thewiiu.com/topic/7747-interesting-article-regarding-cpugpu-in-wii-u/

"The performance problem of hardware nowadays (Interview circa 2012) is not clock speed but ram latency. Fortunately Nintendo took great efforts to ensure developers can really work around that typical bottleneck on Wii U. They put a lot of thought on how CPU, GPU, caches and memory controllers work together to amplify your code speed."

"Nintendo made very wise choices for cache layout, RAM latency and RAM size to work against these pitfalls"

"The Wii U eDRAM has a similar function as the eDRAM in the XBOX360. You put your GPU buffers there for fast access. On Wii U it is just much more available than on XBOX360, which means you can render faster because all of your buffers can reside in this very fast RAM. On Wii U the eDRAM is available to the GPU and CPU. So you can also use it very efficiently to speed up your application."

"Theoretical RAM bandwidth in a system doesn’t tell you too much because GPU caching will hide a lot of this latency."

And again, the GDDR3 in the Wii was not just a buffer. You're thinking of the Gamecube, which used slower DRAM.


Seems like all that was made in comparison to PS360, but then PS4X1 came and that goone old history



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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If Wii U could do PS4 graphics at 60fps, that'd be enough for me. Resolution doesn't really matter to me.



Just give me good gameplay, I'll be happy with almost any graphics.



Locknuts said:
If Wii U could do PS4 graphics at 60fps, that'd be enough for me. Resolution doesn't really matter to me.


So basically you want WiiU to have the base power of PS4 giving some GPU power to CPU since 1080p30fps is quite close to 720p60fps load wise, but one needing more gpu and the other more cpu... it would probably have costed 600 on launch



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

super high res graphics for nintendo games doesn't make much difference due to the cartoon styles. its the 3rd party support that I want which really hurts. no new sports games is really starting to eat at me!!!!



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DonFerrari said:

Seems like all that was made in comparison to PS360, but then PS4X1 came and that goone old history

Yeah, their mistake was gunning for PS3/360 rather than PS4/Xbone power wise.

Still, bonzo was comparing it to PS3/360, so the material seemed relevant, as it was an actual dev who has worked on the system contradicting his claims that main RAM bandwidth and eDRAM size were bottlenecks.



Not if things run at like 26 FPS



Would be enough but also needs third parties support.



For me, it's not about the graphics of the Wii U. I have absolutely no problem with the visuals on Wii U. As a matter of fact, I've actually been impressed several times with the visuals in games on Wii U the same way I've been with other systems. The problem with Wii U is architectural design. They can keep the gamepad and other things that make the Wii U unique but they should have used hardware that was closer to developing games on XB1 and PS4, that way they could have had better publisher support. It's frustrating that Wii U isn't getting so many of the 3rd party games at retail.

Many of the 3rd party retail games that have come out, outside of me buying them on PC for the visuals, I would have loved to play them using the gamepad. Unfortunately, I can't play them because they're not there. The reason is, porting games to Wii U is tedious and expensive. This wouldn't be the case if the internal hardware was more in line with XB1 and PS4 hardware.



AAA300 said:
The ps4 and Xbox one are more 720 p already! Lol! So just ask if Wii u was just as strong.

 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a single 720p PS4 game in existence. The worst I've heard of is 900p, and that's very rare and usually upscaled to 1080 anyway.





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