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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Without Playstation, would the industry be in another crisis?

Samus Aran on 25 April 2015
Mr Puggsly said:

The Nunchuck has a joystick, but not the Wiimote. For dual joysticks people had to get the Pro Controller.

No, by 2010 core software sales were abysmal on Wii. The biggest hits were Black Ops and Goldeneye. Those games achieved poor numbers compared to what 360 and PS3 were achieving in core software sales. Core gamers are the most loyal audience and Wii didn't have that, this is why Wii U is a flop.

Please show me the numbers that say Wii did as good or better at moving core software than SNES/PS1/PS2. Please show me these numbers that don't exist in our reality.

I'm not downplaying the Wii, I'm giving the facts. Wii was very successful but only a small percent of its software sales was core software. Nintendo tried to get core audiences on Wii U (but failed) because they finally realized the value of that audience in the long run.

The Tie ratio of the Wii is higher than the NES, SNES and PS1 and only slightly lower than the PS2.



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DonFerrari on 25 April 2015
foxtail said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:


Yes, but Metal Gear became a household name on Playstation, which is my point. Final Fantasy is also a household name because of Playstation as well.

FInal Fantasy was already popular on Nintendo but became something bigger on Playstation.Sony used to have shares in Square Enix no different than Nintendo had on Rare.

 Sony gave third party a platform where they could thrive without the strangehold of playing second fiddle commercially to first party. They could be just as competitive.

@bold It's not like Nintendo didn't try to help 3rd party games like Final Fantasy sell. Nintendo's official magazine, Nintendo Power (which had a paid subscription base of over 1.5 million at the time), dedicated a whole issue solely to the original Final Fantasy and was a complete guide to the game.  

Nintendo and Square had fairly close relations back then, Squaresoft (the US subsidiary of Square) had headquarters that were located next to Nintendo of America headquarters in Redmond, Washington.

@italic There were some differences betweeen Sony's shares in Square, and Nintendo's shares in Rare.  Square was a publicly traded company, while Rare was not.  Sony purchased a 18.6% stake in Square (which was prior to the Square merger with Enix [it went down to 8.4% after the Square-Enix merger]), Nintnedo's ownership of Rare was 49%.

The Sony purchase of Square stock happened in late 2001.  Square was looking to recoup some of it's losses from the production of it's expensive CGI movie "Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within", which was distributed by Sony/Columbia Pictures.   The Sony investment in Square stock was 14.9 billion yen (~$124 million), the production costs for the movie (Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within) was 16.4 billion yen (~$137 million). 

If Square never made the movie they wouldn't have needed the investment from Sony.

In 2014 Sony sold all its shares in Square Enix to Nikko Securities Inc for 15.3 billion yen.


So your example of Nintendo having great relationship with 3rd parties is one single case? Have your heard of the draconian laws nintendo had with 3rd parties during the NES and SNES? Like total exclusivity with 0 paycheck, just a if you publish anywhere else you can't publish with us? We determine what and when you can publish, etc?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari on 25 April 2015
Mr Puggsly said:
Materia-Blade said:

Wiimote and nunchuck CAN utilize motion. It's only a few buttons from being a more tradicional controller.

"I'm not downplaying the Wii, I'm telling you why it went from mega popular to fading into obscurity rather quickly when compared to its competitors."

It didn't. Software sales only declined when software releases slowed considerably and it kept being played just like any other console. I can also counter argument that the competitors started the gen into obscurity and took a long time to get rid of it.

"The Wii U is struggling because the Wii was simply a fad. The audience Wii acquired were mostly just casuals that wanted something cool at the moment."

yeah, 100% wrong. also, that is downplaying. Wii was acquired and played by the usual audience of snes/ps/ps2 that are kids and teens. The difference is that it was also enjoyed by the older part of the family.

"The Wii owners that had a greater interest in gaming simply went to a console with superior core lineups like Xbox and Playstation."

Waiting for your proof but I already know it isn't true. you really should speak for yourself in subjects like this and stop downplaying a system and it's games.

Seriously, just use your head. The Wiimote doesn't have a joystick therefore games generally used it for motion or gestures. Its not a standard gamepad so give that arguement a rest. The Pro Controller for Wii was their standard gamepad.

The support that declined first was core software because sales declined quickly. Family games and other casual stuff did well for years after. Again, you aren't looking at what type of software was doing well. You're merely looking at software sales as a whole. Look at the best selling games and its primarily family and casual stuff.

Sorry, but Wii never sold core software as well as SNES/PS/PS2. The Wii had the most casual audience a home console has ever had. Simply look at its best selling software if you need proof.

The Wii audience obviously didn't go to Wii U, they either didn't buy another console or went to Xbox and Playstation. Even 3DS software sales are down compared to DS because casual gamers are now content with phone games. Frankly, casual gamers moving away from portable consoles and home consoles to phones/tablets has impacted Nintendo the most.


Have anyone had time to run the tables and see between PS3 or X360 who had the most casual SW sold and the most hardcore??? We know that no game or gamer can be generically called casual or hardcore, but we usually agree that some genres and games usually sell to the one or the other crowd... Because I think even with kinect making more impact than move it's quite possible that due to the total numbers lead at the moment X360 is still in front. What would you say?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Nate4Drake on 25 April 2015
Chazore said:
Nate4Drake said:
Right now, without Playstation, I would be a PC gamer.

You say that as if it were a bad thing =P.

Not a bad thing :)

But I would be REALLY sad without Playstation.  



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

zorg1000 on 25 April 2015
DonFerrari said:
foxtail said:

@bold It's not like Nintendo didn't try to help 3rd party games like Final Fantasy sell. Nintendo's official magazine, Nintendo Power (which had a paid subscription base of over 1.5 million at the time), dedicated a whole issue solely to the original Final Fantasy and was a complete guide to the game.  

Nintendo and Square had fairly close relations back then, Squaresoft (the US subsidiary of Square) had headquarters that were located next to Nintendo of America headquarters in Redmond, Washington.

@italic There were some differences betweeen Sony's shares in Square, and Nintendo's shares in Rare.  Square was a publicly traded company, while Rare was not.  Sony purchased a 18.6% stake in Square (which was prior to the Square merger with Enix [it went down to 8.4% after the Square-Enix merger]), Nintnedo's ownership of Rare was 49%.

The Sony purchase of Square stock happened in late 2001.  Square was looking to recoup some of it's losses from the production of it's expensive CGI movie "Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within", which was distributed by Sony/Columbia Pictures.   The Sony investment in Square stock was 14.9 billion yen (~$124 million), the production costs for the movie (Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within) was 16.4 billion yen (~$137 million). 

If Square never made the movie they wouldn't have needed the investment from Sony.

In 2014 Sony sold all its shares in Square Enix to Nikko Securities Inc for 15.3 billion yen.


So your example of Nintendo having great relationship with 3rd parties is one single case? Have your heard of the draconian laws nintendo had with 3rd parties during the NES and SNES? Like total exclusivity with 0 paycheck, just a if you publish anywhere else you can't publish with us? We determine what and when you can publish, etc?

I really don't get this argument, if Nintendo's practices to 3rd parties were so evil than why did they continue releasing games for them? Couldn't they have easily said, "fuck off Nintendo!!!!" and developed their games elsewhere?

SG-1000 by Sega literally released the same day as Famicom in Japan and NES shipped a whopping 200,000 in America at the time of the Sega Master System & Atari 7800 releases. 3rd parties had other options if they felt they were being mistreated, yet they stuck by Nintendo's side and kept making games for them.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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naruball on 25 April 2015
RolStoppable said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Really? Nintendo won their case but they were involved in shady tactics to stay ahead of the competition before the Playstation arrived.
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-02/business/fi-1361_1_video-game-market

Shady tactics, haha. Nintendo is always portrayed as an evil corporation and Sony as the savior of third parties.

The article you linked to lists several cases:

1. Atari sued Nintendo for allegedly monopolizing the market. Atari lost the case because the court rightly concluded that Atari got into trouble because Atari themselves sucked.

2. Unfair policies towards retailers. This is unspecified, so it would be guesswork what this was about.

3. Nintendo not allowing unlicensed games to be played on their systems. This case is absolutely ridiculous, but it shows what kind of crap Nintendo had to deal with all the time back then. The competition couldn't handle it that they couldn't compete with Nintendo, so they kept suing Nintendo in hopes that the courts would view it as an USA vs. Japan thing and rule in favor of the USA.

This very post determined that that (bolded) was a lie.



JOKA_ on 25 April 2015
S.T.A.G.E. said:
JOKA_ said:
No, somebody else would have stepped in/up.


Like who? 3DO was a bust and Microsoft didnt set foot into console gaming until Sony became a threat.


This is impossible to predict, I don't have a specific company name for you.

Maybe Sega wouldn't have stopped making consoles? maybe Nintendo would have gone in a different direction? Maybe some small new startup that no one has mentioned would have stepped in?

I just find it extremely hard to believe that an industry would hit hard times, leaving a whole bunch of money on the table, and NO ONE was going to throw their hat in the ring to snag some of it.



Platinums: Red Dead Redemption, Killzone 2, LittleBigPlanet, Terminator Salvation, Uncharted 1, inFamous Second Son, Rocket League

Materia-Blade on 25 April 2015
Mr Puggsly said:
Materia-Blade said:

"The Wiimote doesn't have a joystick therefore it can't emulate a dual joystick gamepad unless its using motion."

wtf? what is this "joystick" you are talking about? if it's the analogue stick, the wiimote and nunchuck certainly have it.

"The support that declined first was core software, because that declined quickly. Family games and other casual stuff did well for years after"

Downplaying by dismissing things as family/casual and false statement about "core software" sales. the wii had a lot of releases untill the end of 2010 and software sales FOR ALL KINDS OF GAMES kept strong up to that point.

"Sorry, but Wii never sold core software as well as SNES/PS/PS2."

Numbers say otherwise.

"The Wii had the most casual audience a home console has ever had. Simply look at its best selling software if you need proof."

When will you stop downplaying the wii? This conversation is over.

The Nunchuck has a joystick, but not the Wiimote. For dual joysticks people had to get the Pro Controller.

No, by 2010 core software sales were abysmal on Wii. The biggest hits were Black Ops and Goldeneye. Those games achieved poor numbers compared to what 360 and PS3 were achieving in core software sales. Core gamers are the most loyal audience and Wii didn't have that, this is why Wii U is a flop.

Please show me the numbers that say Wii did as good or better at moving core software than SNES/PS1/PS2. Please show me these numbers that don't exist in our reality.

I'm not downplaying the Wii, I'm giving the facts. Wii was very successful but only a small percent of its software sales was core software. Nintendo tried to get core audiences on Wii U (but failed) because they finally realized the value of that audience in the long run.

"The Nunchuck has a joystick, but not the Wiimote. For dual joysticks people had to get the Pro Controller."

Wiimote and nunchuck should always be considered together. and although a second analogue would be great for camera controls, the wiimote far surpasses the second analogue for fps (a genre that is casual but you consider core).

"No, by 2010 core software sales were abysmal on Wii. The biggest hits were Black Ops and Goldeneye."

cod isn't core. But regardless, wii got about 20 releases in 2010 that sold at least 500k. among them are super mario galaxy 2, donkey kong country returns, metroid other m, xenoblade chronicles (japan), kirby's epic yarn, epic mickey...

"Please show me the numbers that say Wii did as good or better at moving core software than SNES/PS1/PS2. Please show me these numbers that don't exist in our reality."

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=&publisher=&platform=Wii&genre=&minSales=0&results=200

Best selling mario kart, best selling non bundled 2d mario, best selling smash bros, best selling 3d mario (and a 2nd 3d mario that still beat sunshine), best selling mario party, 2nd best selling legend of zelda + numerous multimillion sellers from existing franchises + dozen million sellers from new franchises...

This is the reality and your downplaying will never change it.



Materia-Blade on 25 April 2015
RolStoppable said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Really? Nintendo won their case but they were involved in shady tactics to stay ahead of the competition before the Playstation arrived.
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-02/business/fi-1361_1_video-game-market

Shady tactics, haha. Nintendo is always portrayed as an evil corporation and Sony as the savior of third parties.

The article you linked to lists several cases:

1. Atari sued Nintendo for allegedly monopolizing the market. Atari lost the case because the court rightly concluded that Atari got into trouble because Atari themselves sucked.

2. Unfair policies towards retailers. This is unspecified, so it would be guesswork what this was about.

3. Nintendo not allowing unlicensed games to be played on their systems. This case is absolutely ridiculous, but it shows what kind of crap Nintendo had to deal with all the time back then. The competition couldn't handle it that they couldn't compete with Nintendo, so they kept suing Nintendo in hopes that the courts would view it as an USA vs. Japan thing and rule in favor of the USA.

Yeah. although nintendo's policies in the 80's and early 90's were far from perfect, people exaggerate and only mention the bad parts.



Mr Puggsly on 25 April 2015
Materia-Blade said:

"The Nunchuck has a joystick, but not the Wiimote. For dual joysticks people had to get the Pro Controller."

Wiimote and nunchuck should always be considered together. and although a second analogue would be great for camera controls, the wiimote far surpasses the second analogue for fps (a genre that is casual but you consider core).

"No, by 2010 core software sales were abysmal on Wii. The biggest hits were Black Ops and Goldeneye."

cod isn't core. But regardless, wii got about 20 releases in 2010 that sold at least 500k. among them are super mario galaxy 2, donkey kong country returns, metroid other m, xenoblade chronicles (japan), kirby's epic yarn, epic mickey...

"Please show me the numbers that say Wii did as good or better at moving core software than SNES/PS1/PS2. Please show me these numbers that don't exist in our reality."

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=&publisher=&platform=Wii&genre=&minSales=0&results=200

Best selling mario kart, best selling non bundled 2d mario, best selling smash bros, best selling 3d mario (and a 2nd 3d mario that still beat sunshine), best selling mario party, 2nd best selling legend of zelda + numerous multimillion sellers from existing franchises + dozen million sellers from new franchises...

This is the reality and your downplaying will never change it.

I am considering the Wiimote and Nunchuck together. Even together there is only one joystick. The Pro Controller has two joysticks. If the Wiimote had a joystick your argument would actually have some validity.

Not everyone agree the Wiimote is superior for shooters. Which is why the Pro Controller exist and most people play shooters on gamepads. Shooters do better on platforms with core appeal, something Nintendo platforms lack.

Haha! You consider 500K great numbers? The reality is that's why core support died on Wii. Those sales are crap compared to what PS360 were achieving. Core games were lucky to do 500K on Wii while its competitors were doing multi millions. Again, you say CoD isn't core but ignore how well it does on core platforms.

I said show me Wii did better at moving core software than SNES/PS1/PS2. I didn't ask for proof Wii could sell casual stuff and Mario games.

I'm not downplaying the Wii, I acknowledge what it did successfully. You on the other hand are trying to convince me it was a success in the core market and it wasn't. Bottom line, if Wii was a successful core platform then the Wii U wouldn't be struggling this bad right now.



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