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Forums - Nintendo - Nintendo Is Hurtin' In Japan, NX Really Needs To Be Out Sooner Than Later

NX need a good launch preparation, marketing, PR, planing, and game, so time is not the problem here.



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Materia-Blade said:
Hiku said:
Materia-Blade said:

"just a few" japanese titles? ps4 has just received a lot of games over the past weeks, including DQ heroes. A boost was expected. it's the post boost baseline that matters.

None of those games are their main francises or even particularly big games at that, is what I was refering to. Dragon Quest Heroes is not a proper Dragon Quest game, but a Musou game. Yakuza has never been a system seller, etc. Also, hardly anyone bought FF Type-0 HD in Japan unlike in the west. (Because they've already played it on PSP, unlike us.) And yet we've been seeing impressive signs lately in spite of that. What will be really interesting is when games like Metal Gear Solid V, Final Fantasy XV, a main staple Resident Evil game, Persona 5, Kingdom Hearts 3, and other jrpgs start coming out, etc.
WiiU already released several of their main franchises released, while PS4 has yet to release even one. WiiU also had a price reduction, while PS4 has not.
Looking forward there's not a lot left for Nintendo to throw at Japan, and it will just get worse with time. Meanwhile Sony have pretty much everything left to play.

Materia-Blade said:

"The great irony in it all is that Japan was the one region where the most people were sure the Wii U had a chance at winning"

So far, it's winning, unless you want to include handhelds.

That's called "being in the lead", not "winning".
The one winning is the one on track to win by the end. And that does not look to be the case for the WiiU at all right now. It's getting outsold by PS3 at times iirc.

"None of those games are their main francises or even particularly big games at that, is what I was refering to"

they came in great quantity, one week even had 3 releases.

"The one winning is the one on track to win by the end."

Wii U is ahead (winning) and any "track" is uncertain for either. ps4 was in the low 10k before dragon quest heroes, what guarantee do you have that it won't go back there? at the same time, you are comparing it to wii u numbers when it didn't get a good release in a long time. we can't tell how big or small of a boost it will get from xenoblade, splatoon, yoshi...

Ya PS4 sales may go back down during slow periods but it still has alot of big games to release, the like of Persona, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts are all big releases and their will of course be more because PS4 has strong 3rd party support in Japan, something Nintendo does not.

Of course games like Xenoblade, Yoshi, Splatoon, etc. can cause spikes in sales but big Wii U games are too far and few between to cause sustained momentum. The last week of April has Xenoblade+new bundle+Dragon Quest X expansion, we can expect to see a strong week for Wii U but in the following weeks, expect to see the baseline drop until it's back to sub-10k.

Wii U has peaked in Japan, that's not really worth debating, 2014 sold less than 2013 despite titles like Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Donkey Kong, Hyrule Warriors, Bayonetta, Fatal Frame, Captain Toad and this year is down about 25% YoY thru the first quarter and it's very unlikely that's gonna change anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Wii U, it's my console of choice and I have had a blast playing it but at some point we need to take our Nintendo goggles off and accept reality, Wii U is not and will not be a strong performer. 3-3.5 million lifetime in Japan sounds about right based on its sales trajectory while PS4 will likely double or even triple that due to Playstation consoles historically having much longer legs and vastly larger 3rd party support.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Soundwave said:
Maraccuda said:
I dont think a new console will help it Nintendo just need to make more games is all, or obtain more games for Japanese gamers.

PLUS Japanese dont care much for home consoles anymore, so that is a factor too.


That's part of the beauty of the fusion/iOS style game platform (shared games) comes in though. 

I'm sure there are probably more than a couple of 3DS owners who wouldn't mind trying games like Hyrule Warriors or DKC: Tropical Freeze or even Bayonetta 2 ... but they're not going to pay an extra $300 for a home console they really don't want/need just to play a handful of games. 

In a Fusion setup, those games can reach ALL of the users that Nintendo sells to, not just the small minority (yes, minority) console fanbase. 

It's the same thing with me and iOS ... Apple still gets my money even though I chose a Samsung phone over an iPhone (this was before iPhone 6, I wanted a bigger screen phone, opted for Samsung). But I continued with the iOS marketplace because I still had an iPad at home, so I have access to all the app goodies on the iOS marketplace. 

Give the consumer the choice, don't dictate to them, fit their life style, not the other way around. 

I understand what you are saying but we dont know for certain if the NX is merely a Steam like operating service or a dedicated console again.

The only thing I can think of if Nintendo do this is that despite it generating a lot of money, the internet will brand Nintendo as betraying its core fans and hardcore gamers by going to an incredibly casual market.

Again will make a lot of money but I for one would loathe such a set up.



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yay 14 pages to learn that I should be happy with 7 games in 2 years lol. Fuck that. If they want people's money they need a continuous flow of big hitters or it will be just a Nintendo box for a diminishing crowd each gen.



 

 

Soundwave said:
DélioPT said:
Of the 3 main markets, i think it's safe to say that Japan has been the one who just hasn't responded to the increasing library of Nintendo games on Wii U.
Also, it's probably THE market where if you your console doesn't have 3rd party support the chances of an actual recovery are null.

Vita started bad but because 3rd party support improved the console sales' improved.
Same thing for PS4 - at least, recent sales seem to suggest that.

Now, specifically about home consoles, Nintendo's situation has been bad since the N64. With Wii being the exception.
The core market always belonged to Sony. It's nothing new, really.
Sony has been having solid relationships with 3rd parties and consumers for years now. and that helped Sony create a strong market for their consoles filled with 3rd party games.
As a result of that, you see Wii U getting pratically no support whatsoever as 3rd parties don't bet on a console that consumers don't care about and is also failing abroad and can't be a worldwide venue for their games.

In the case of japan, why NX really needs to be Fusion:
HD development has meant nothing but lack of games since 2012 - even before, if you take into consideration that development for Wii was pratically non-existant since 2011.
Even after the lurning curve, and for a consoles in it's 3rd year on the market, nothing really substantial has changed. Wii U still hasn't got the kind of support that 3DS got in 2013.

You'll say that's natural since 3DS is not a HD machine, but now imagine how things will be when NX is revealed to be Nintendo's 2nd HD console and another form development (different architecture) has to begin.
Even if you take out HD development learning curve, how do you think Nintendo will do, having to support 2 HD machines that can't easily port games between one another?

And the answer is, badly.
If things are bad now for Wii U, they will only get worse because Nintendo will produce fewer games starting next year already, and that will make the console die a slow death before a new console arrives in 2017.
If in 2016 Nintendo releases both handheld and home console at the same time, not only will that use whatever interest consumers have for a Nintendo home console, but the ability to develop one game on both platforms will have two main benefits:
- Every (BIG) handheld game also comes out on NX Home console - which doesn't happen in the PSV and PS4 ecosystem. A plus for NX and something that will help change the mentality of what a Nintendo home console has to offer;
- By "killing" Wii U early they will have to take care of what would basically be 1 HD machine, instead of 2 with different architectures (Wii U and the NX handheld). Thus, saving enough manpower for more games per year (even new franchises), bigger games or even more partnerships with 3rd party studios (which greatly improves relationships).




My thoughts exactly. 

Nintendo can't sustain two high-end platforms at once. 

Even towards the end of the Wii-DS era they were starting to buckle under the strain, and during the Wii U-3DS era it's becoming unworkable. 

Bump the system spec of the next Nintendo handheld to around XBox 360 level visuals and design scope, and there's no way Nintendo can juggle two platforms like that. Let alone people who then want on top of that another console platform that goes into PS4 or beyond territory, lol. 

Look at how slow experienced HD devs like Naughty Dog can't even get Uncharted 4 out on time and Nintendo, a company that can't make an HD Zelda in under 5 years is somehow going to jump to that plane in a few years? Nope. Won't work. 

Shared library is the only way Nintendo can have two hardware systems going forward.


If Nintendo can't manage to have enough games for Wii U, developing for 2 HD consoles then...

What we want to see won't always be what Nintendo needs.
As you mentioned, Nintendo had a bad transition between 2 SD consoles to 1 SD console+1HD console.
Even with the learning curve of HD development being gone, having two develop for a second HD console, plus a PS4 like console (development has to start at least 2 years prior to launch), will take it's toll on Nintendo. The transition for next gen will be even worse than what we saw during 2011 to 2013.
Not even sharing a OS and APIs will fix this situation on the long run.

As you said, ND is having trouble on a easier console to develop. Other companies are having trouble on easier to develop consoles.
That should be a sign that next gen, if there isn't a radical change development wise, things will get really bad.



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DélioPT said:
Soundwave said:


My thoughts exactly. 

Nintendo can't sustain two high-end platforms at once. 

Even towards the end of the Wii-DS era they were starting to buckle under the strain, and during the Wii U-3DS era it's becoming unworkable. 

Bump the system spec of the next Nintendo handheld to around XBox 360 level visuals and design scope, and there's no way Nintendo can juggle two platforms like that. Let alone people who then want on top of that another console platform that goes into PS4 or beyond territory, lol. 

Look at how slow experienced HD devs like Naughty Dog can't even get Uncharted 4 out on time and Nintendo, a company that can't make an HD Zelda in under 5 years is somehow going to jump to that plane in a few years? Nope. Won't work. 

Shared library is the only way Nintendo can have two hardware systems going forward.


If Nintendo can't manage to have enough games for Wii U, developing for 2 HD consoles then...

What we want to see won't always be what Nintendo needs.
As you mentioned, Nintendo had a bad transition between 2 SD consoles to 1 SD console+1HD console.
Even with the learning curve of HD development being gone, having two develop for a second HD console, plus a PS4 like console (development has to start at least 2 years prior to launch), will take it's toll on Nintendo. The transition for next gen will be even worse than what we saw during 2011 to 2013.
Not even sharing a OS and APIs will fix this situation on the long run.

As you said, ND is having trouble on a easier console to develop. Other companies are having trouble on easier to develop consoles.
That should be a sign that next gen, if there isn't a radical change development wise, things will get really bad.


Yep exactly why we need all games playable on each Nintendo device. I don't get why some people are so against the idea, it's not like the design/experience of games on 3DS & Wii U are vastly different.

Super Mario 3D Land vs Super Mario 3D World

New Super Mario Bros. 2 vs New Super Mario Bros. U

Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask 3D vs Wind Waker HD

Donkey Kong Country Returns vs Tropical Freeze

Mario Kart 7 vs Mario Kart 8

Super Smash Bros. for 3DS vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Xenoblade Chronicles 3D vs Xenoblade Chronicles X

Other games like Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Fire Emblem, Luigi's Mansion, Paper Mario are completely functional as handheld or console games.

Of course the Wii U games are for the most part bigger/better but wouldn't it be nice not having to own 2 seperate devices to get the full Nintendo experience? A single unified platform with 2-3 form factors that gets 20+ Nintendo-published titles per year sounds like a great device for fans.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Materia-Blade said:
 

It's ahead in both ltd and aligned sales, this fact cannot be denied. what you think will happen in the future is an opinion.

So, the Wii U has sold about 105k for January and February this year while the PS4 has sold about 240k in the same space. I did say that the PS4 had a slow start in Japan, which it did, it also released in February, as opposed to December, which is also a great advantage, not to mention the lack of any proper Japan centric software at the beginning (Wii U had NSMBU from the start). It is now starting to move for real and there is nothing indicating an imminent collapse in sales here. Aligned sales in the first 12 months are not the key to seeing the future sales situation if one is growing and one is heavily down after this period, this is not how sales analysis works, it reminds me of the whole "Wii is tracking the PS2 launches aligned, will outsell it for sure!"

The Wii U sold 1.26 million in its first 12 months on the Japanese market and has sold around 980k in the 15 months following that, meaning that it is down rather heavily in Japan, despite having its biggest franchises out already, meanwhile the PS4 has not had a price cut yet, it has yet to release any of its biggest franchises and it is showing signs of healthy yoy growth so far, which means there will be a convergence point in the future where the Wii U on the way down and PS4 on the way up will inevitably meet and the PS4 will take the lead.

For that not to happen; either the Wii U will need a resurgence in Japan, for no good reason at all, there is not a single indicator anywhere that this is likely or even possible or the PS4's sales would need to shrink and fade, which is also a really, really long stretch.

So, seeing as you claim that it is merely my opinion that the PS4 will take the lead; do you sincerely believe that the Wii U will win Japan despite the sales already heading down at a rapid pace and the biggest hitters being released? Will Zelda save it? I mean; honestly, there has to be a point in time where you start applying logic and realism to your posts and 2015 will be a tough year if you keep clinging to these notions of yours.



Mummelmann said:
Materia-Blade said:
 

It's ahead in both ltd and aligned sales, this fact cannot be denied. what you think will happen in the future is an opinion.

So, the Wii U has sold about 105k for January and February this year while the PS4 has sold about 240k in the same space. I did say that the PS4 had a slow start in Japan, which it did, it also released in February, as opposed to December, which is also a great advantage, not to mention the lack of any proper Japan centric software at the beginning (Wii U had NSMBU from the start). It is now starting to move for real and there is nothing indicating an imminent collapse in sales here. Aligned sales in the first 12 months are not the key to seeing the future sales situation if one is growing and one is heavily down after this period, this is not how sales analysis works, it reminds me of the whole "Wii is tracking the PS2 launches aligned, will outsell it for sure!"

The Wii U sold 1.26 million in its first 12 months on the Japanese market and has sold around 980k in the 15 months following that, meaning that it is down rather heavily in Japan, despite having its biggest franchises out already, meanwhile the PS4 has not had a price cut yet, it has yet to release any of its biggest franchises and it is showing signs of healthy yoy growth so far, which means there will be a convergence point in the future where the Wii U on the way down and PS4 on the way up will inevitably meet and the PS4 will take the lead.

For that not to happen; either the Wii U will need a resurgence in Japan, for no good reason at all, there is not a single indicator anywhere that this is likely or even possible or the PS4's sales would need to shrink and fade, which is also a really, really long stretch.

So, seeing as you claim that it is merely my opinion that the PS4 will take the lead; do you sincerely believe that the Wii U will win Japan despite the sales already heading down at a rapid pace and the biggest hitters being released? Will Zelda save it? I mean; honestly, there has to be a point in time where you start applying logic and realism to your posts and 2015 will be a tough year if you keep clinging to these notions of yours.

I have a feeling he's going to cling to the idea of Wii U winning until the bitter end and once Nintendo fully announces their next console, the excuse will be that Nintendo could have won but they instead decided to move on to bigger/brighter things.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
DélioPT said:


If Nintendo can't manage to have enough games for Wii U, developing for 2 HD consoles then...

What we want to see won't always be what Nintendo needs.
As you mentioned, Nintendo had a bad transition between 2 SD consoles to 1 SD console+1HD console.
Even with the learning curve of HD development being gone, having two develop for a second HD console, plus a PS4 like console (development has to start at least 2 years prior to launch), will take it's toll on Nintendo. The transition for next gen will be even worse than what we saw during 2011 to 2013.
Not even sharing a OS and APIs will fix this situation on the long run.

As you said, ND is having trouble on a easier console to develop. Other companies are having trouble on easier to develop consoles.
That should be a sign that next gen, if there isn't a radical change development wise, things will get really bad.


Yep exactly why we need all games playable on each Nintendo device. I don't get why some people are so against the idea, it's not like the design/experience of games on 3DS & Wii U are vastly different.

Super Mario 3D Land vs Super Mario 3D World

New Super Mario Bros. 2 vs New Super Mario Bros. U

Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask 3D vs Wind Waker HD

Donkey Kong Country Returns vs Tropical Freeze

Mario Kart 7 vs Mario Kart 8

Super Smash Bros. for 3DS vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Xenoblade Chronicles 3D vs Xenoblade Chronicles X

Other games like Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Fire Emblem, Luigi's Mansion, Paper Mario are completely functional as handheld or console games.

Of course the Wii U games are for the most part bigger/better but wouldn't it be nice not having to own 2 seperate devices to get the full Nintendo experience? A single unified platform with 2-3 form factors that gets 20+ Nintendo-published titles per year sounds like a great device for fans.


The time where a handheld experience was different than a home console experience is gone.
It probably happened with DS or 3DS, but now HH and HC games aren't really that different.

There might be a difference because some games will always play or feel better on a home console (Smash) than on a handheld (animal crossing), or vice versa, but that's normal.
With both consoles even sharing the same basic tech you won't really notice it that much. Actually, the market has shown that handheld owners have no problem in getting home console type of games, like Smash, for example, or others that you mentioned.

 

I think the main reason people are against it it's because they no longer get a differentiaton and that would "naturally" cause Nintendo to lose on one side (home console segment, primarily).
But they also foret that the days where Nintendo could actually support both consoles are gone. And they are gone because development has switched from 2D and 3D to just 3D - and HD development aswell.
It was easier for Nintendo to support 2 consoles at a time, because the handheld was either 2D or really old tech and Nintendo had that easily covered with small staff or ports, with the bulk of the staff being allocated to the home console which needed staff the most. That no longer happens and droughts are more noticable then ever - and bounded to get worse.



DélioPT said:
zorg1000 said:


Yep exactly why we need all games playable on each Nintendo device. I don't get why some people are so against the idea, it's not like the design/experience of games on 3DS & Wii U are vastly different.

Super Mario 3D Land vs Super Mario 3D World

New Super Mario Bros. 2 vs New Super Mario Bros. U

Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask 3D vs Wind Waker HD

Donkey Kong Country Returns vs Tropical Freeze

Mario Kart 7 vs Mario Kart 8

Super Smash Bros. for 3DS vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Xenoblade Chronicles 3D vs Xenoblade Chronicles X

Other games like Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Fire Emblem, Luigi's Mansion, Paper Mario are completely functional as handheld or console games.

Of course the Wii U games are for the most part bigger/better but wouldn't it be nice not having to own 2 seperate devices to get the full Nintendo experience? A single unified platform with 2-3 form factors that gets 20+ Nintendo-published titles per year sounds like a great device for fans.

 

I think the main reason people are against it it's because they no longer get a differentiaton and that would "naturally" cause Nintendo to lose on one side (home console segment, primarily).

I think people are wrong to assume this. Currently Wii U is a $299 console that gets about 8-10 major exclusive per year, meaning unless ur a huge fan of Nintendo-published titles, that's not enough. People might be interested in Wii U as a secondary console but it's price to games ratio isn't right for that.

Now let's say Nintendo's next console is $249 and gets 20+ Nintendo-published titles per year, that instantly becomes a much, much stronger candidate as a secondary console.

Even the handheld side benefits because currently 3DS gets about 12-16 Nintendo-published titles per year, going up to 20+ titles per year is still an improvement.

Maybe they will lose out a bit on dual device owners but the potential to attract new consumers could cancel that out.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.