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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo Enthusiats: No Mr. Adelman, You’re Wrong About Nintendo’s Third-Party Situation

As someone who was actually around during the time, Street Fighter II was THE killer app for the SNES. SF2 was the COD or Destiny or whatever for its day and it being only the SNES in 1992 was huuuuuuuuge.

When it came out the console wars started to tilt in Nintendo's favor again, but then the mistake of censoring Mortal Kombat in '93 scuttled Nintendo's momentum until in '94 they came back with uncensored MK2 + Donkey Kong Country and they finally KO-ed the Genesis.

Back in those days you played as much third party content if not moreso than Nintendo games on Nintendo consoles. 

I played a ton of Megaman, Contra, Super C, Ninja Turtles, Blade of Steel, Metal Gear, Wizards & Warriors, Ninja Gaiden, Double Dragon II, Duck Tales on my NES, all these games were hit games many of these games outsold many Nintendo IP. 

On SNES, Street Fighter II, Final Fantasy III (VI), NHL '94, Top Gear, Chrono Trigger, Mortal Kombat 2, NBA Live, Megaman X, Super Star Wars, NBA Jam, Contra III, etc.

The NES/SNES were the PS4 of their day. 



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I think an important thing to keep in mind is that it does not appear Nintendo is going anywhere anytime soon. Essentially, it isn't as if they've got to right the home console ship in the next two years or so... They can take another stab or two at it.

The one advantage they've maintained is that they aren't losing money when they sell a console, a reality for Microsoft and Sony that has led them to stretch the lifespan of their respective consoles out as long as possible. Microsoft's system is selling at a respectable rate so they'll likely be content to sit on it for another half decade.

Sony, meanwhile, is in a fairly dire financial situation to the point that it's not even clear whether or not they could release another console and absorb the initial losses even if they wanted to (consider, for instance, that just a year ago Nintendo's market value was higher than Sony's despite being exclusively a gaming company). When one considers that we're likely to see potentially terrible losses from the leaked movies/emails once they release their delayed quarterly report and that the PS4 is dominating this gen it seems likely they'll milk this console for all they can.

What I'm suggesting is Nintendo has the time and money to approach this situation with caution, and the next system needn't necessarily be a make-or-break for them. Some of these comparisons to sega's situation through the 90's are certainly unfair; Microsoft isn't going anywhere (they treat the Xbox almost as if it were a pet project with it serving as the face of their company, never expecting actual profit with a massive piggy bank to fund it) but the current leader of this gen has been hemorrhaging money for some time now and won't want to participate in a quick succession of generations.

Nintendo has generally made sound business decisions from the start, still have enough money to operate at a loss for many years to come without issue, have worked their way out of the red despite an unpopular home console, still dominate an admittedly dwindling handheld market... Basically, there's no need for the doom and gloom jargon when discussing their future. As has been shown nearly every generation, there's very little brand loyalty in the NA market; there's no reason we should project forward and count Nintendo out of this race over the coming decade.



Skullwaker said:
I don't think the situation is so black and white. Both Adelman and the article's author bring up incredibly valid points and there's not one completely right solution to Nintendo's problem. It's very complex.


I see the it the same way as you.

It´s not that simple. Some people say that Nintendo should just put a lot of money on third party companies´pockets, but they still need to produce their own games. Being a company focused only on videogames and with the urge to post some profits, they just can´t afford that.



I wouldn't mind if Nintendo went fully digital next generation and returned to arcade digital titles compatible to both its home and handheld devices. Not all games need to be ZeldaU, but you can certainly fill in your schedule with smaller titles like CaptainToadTT or KirbyRC.



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NightDragon83 said:
Slarvax said:
RolStoppable said:
NiKKoM said:
Strange article.. So instead of having the best first party games together with good third party games the writer doesn't want that? He thinks everything is fine like this? Nintendo is clearly not big enough to keep pumping first party games on a regular level to maintain interest from the general public.. Why wouldn't you want third party games to fill up the gap? Its clearly losing a generation of kids to tablets and phones.. This way Nintendo will have a problem when Angry Birds appeals to many like Mario does.

It read more like the writer wasn't interested in having crappy third party games and he would rather have that Nintendo keeps reaching out for collaborations with selected third parties. It's a reasonable thought process when you take sales history into account. There were hardly any multiplatform games that moved Nintendo hardware, and I only say "hardly" because I couldn't be bothered to verify that there were none at all.

Only Just Dance for the Wii late on its life and Tetris for the Gameboy. I'm very sure every other Nintendo console had very low selling 3rd party games (except SNES, but those didn't move the hardware numbers anyway).

Not true at all.  Street Fighter II alone probably moved as many consoles in the early days of the SNES as Super Mario World did, and was instrumental in allowing the SNES to catch up to the Genesis which already had a 2 year head start in the west.  Third parties like Square / Enix, Konami and Capcom played a huge role in the NES's and SNES's popularity and success as well.

The N64 also had its share of 3rd party best sellers like the Turok series, Tony Hawk, the WCW / WWF games, and the LucasArts / Factor 5 Star Wars games.  Hell, even the GC had a decent amount of million-seller 3rd party titles.

Then the Wii happened, which became the Just Dance / Guitar Hero and party / minigame machine for 3rd parties.  And now the Wii U can't even get that part right, so its no wonder 3rd party developers have all but abandoned Nintendo.


They are talking about multiplats, not 3rd parties in general. Most of those titles u listed were exclusive to Nintendo so that proves their point, multiplats have never been a driving force for Nintendo.

Street Fighter II was on SNES for about 2 years before Genesis got a version of it, also games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Mega Man, Castlevania, etc didn't sell NES/SNES because they were third party games, it was because they were high-quality games that couldn't be found elsewhere. Same goes for the N64 third party games, Turok, Star Wars, wrestling/sports/racing games that sold well were mostly exclusive, the only really strong selling multiplat was Tony Hawk.

It's the same reason PS1 was able to steal so much of Nintendo's market, it wasn't because it had third parties, it was because it had more and bigger exclusives, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Tekken, Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, Twisted Metal, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon were on PS1 but not N64.

Even most of the big system selling PS2 games were exclusive, Grand Theft Auto, Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo, Metal Gear Solid, Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts, God of War. PS2 did have alot of strong selling multiplats but it was because they had already built up a huge lead over the competitors.

The HD twins in the 7th were really the first time that multiplats have been the driving force of sales for consoles.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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bunchanumbers said:
method114 said:
bunchanumbers said:
Good read but I disagree with Adelman. I think the course Nintendo is taking is actually a solid route. Their focus on the indie scene has brought more developers to the Nintendo fold and some developers are actually seeking out Nintendo for their games. Since indie games are the biggest source of new creativity in gaming it means that Nintendo systems are on the forefront of a interesting situation.

Yes it is a loss to not have the big AAA franchises on their system, but overall it isn't really missing much. Nintendo and the indies do offer so much that it makes it hard to really miss them.


I disagree I think missing AAA francises is a huge loss. I can say for a fact that I would have got a nintendo system if they would make a system that could compete with PS4 and X1. They already have a great first party line up and always release quality games. Now you add all the great third party games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Witcher and it's just an obvious choice for best console.

Sony wins simply because they have third party support. Add to that there first party line up which is not as good but they constantly try new IP's which is always nice.


If this is the case why didn't you go PC? If you win simply because you have 3rd party wouldn't PC be the natural choice for gaming? Plus you get your games at incredibly low prices and you get the best versions of all games. Its what I use for 3rd party games when a 3rd party publisher skips Wii U.

Your right and I did think about going PC. The issue is I don't want to use a mouse and keyboard and they're required if I want to play games like BF4. Going against PC users with a controller is asking to get murdered and I already suck at the game as it is. I also can't relax on my couch using a mouse and keyboard it's just not comftorable. So that's pretty much what stopped me from going that route I used to be a heavy PC gamer so I do enjoy it. Another reason is back when I was PC gaming I pirated all games that I could. Consoles force me not to do that and I don't want to risk having my system bricked by modifying it. This forces me to contribute to the gaming community. I'm sure now that I have a much better job I wouldn't do that anymore but sometimes I wonder if I could resist because it was just so easy to do.

With all of that said I'm seriously considering going back to PC gaming once the PS4 is done. I've even thought about slowly building a machine already will see. I even thought about just going ahead and getting a Wii U. Being able to go back and play all the Wii games I missed plus Wii U games. I don't know what I'm going to do to many options in gaming wish we could just have one machine to play it all.



ktay95 said:
You lied to me, you told me it was a good read. I was laughing half the time at the writer =P

So you had a good time, therefore it was a good read.



Shadow1980 said:


So, third parties are apparently still willing to release games for Nintendo platforms, but most have neglected to port their biggest, most important titles because of Nintendo's hardware design decisions. And without proper third party support Nintendo will never have a console that sells more than 30 million units. Attempting to go the Wii route a third time after the Wii U showed how much of a crapshoot the "less powerful but less expensive and gimmick controller-driven console" model is would be, well, "Did I ever tell you the definition of 'insanity'?" With motion controls and touchscreens being really the only two notable non-standard control inputs for games, it's hard to think of what kind of new gimmick controller they could come up with this time, and other risky hardware design decisions (e.g., the rumored "Fusion" concept; extra emphasis on "rumored") would probably be ill-advised as well. Nintendo needs to make a system that's a standard console, something that could compete on even terms with the PS5. Third parties will develop for such a system. Why wouldn't they? I honestly think they don't care which systems the sales come from. So long as the hardware is something suitable for their major AAA releases, they'll release for it. Nintendo wouldn't even have to pay extra to get third parties, like that other guy referenced in the article suggests. None of this means Nintendo has to stop innovating, but innovation needs to be on the software front, not the hardware front (incidentally, most "innovation" and advancement in gaming was only possible due to better hardware). They can continue pushing their big-name games in new directions, and they can even continue implementing Wiimotes & Wii U gamepads as optional accessories to enhance certain games or tap into any remaining market for motion gaming, asymmetric multiplayer, and/or off-screen play. But at its core the ninth-gen Nintendo console should be a conventional, powerful system. If it's not, then Nintendo should content themselves with yet another third-place finish as it'd be something that appeals only to those who like Nintendo games, which is a market only 20 million strong at best.

A conventional Nintendo system with solid third-party support and the right marketing will likely do quite well. Sure, it won't be some phenomenon like the Wii was, but I think they could keep pace with the PS5 in terms of sales, eating into Sony's market share and possibly crowding out Xbox (assuming MS releases a console next generation). 60-70 million might not be as good at 100 million, but it's a helluva sight better than 20 million. Most gamers are quite fickle with no real loyalty to any of the Big Three, especially in America, and they'll go with whoever they feel offers the best deal, and I think with the proper marketing and whatnot Nintendo could position themselves as the best and biggest bang for your buck. As for those who are Nintendo loyalists, the ones who also demand third-party games would have little reason to buy another system in addition to their Nintendo. The main reason I got a PS4 when I did was for third-party games, and there's probably quite a lot of other Wii U owners who bought one of the others as well because of the Wii U's lackluster third-party support. Had the Wii U been a conventional system that shared 90% of the same games as the PS4, I might not have bothered with the PS4 until much later in the generation (I still like some of Sony's exclusives), and some people I know probably would have been satisfied with just the Nintendo system.

Field of Dreams was right: If you build it, they will come. If your system is palatable to third parties, they will develop for it. If your system has all the big third-party games, it becomes a more viable choice for gamers. A console maker neglects third parties at their own peril.

I disagree, given that third parties abandoned Wii U *before* they abandoned PS360, that it's clearly not an issue of power. They simply aren't interested in putting their best foot forward in Nintendo's environment, and it would cost Nintendo a small fortune to get even a few of them to do so, and that's assuming that Sony and/or MS didn't try to stop them in the process.

Nintendo needs to focus on building their own environment, keep up the specific third-party partnerships (for abandoned games like B2 or Devil's Third and IP-partnerships like Pokken and Hyrule Warriors), and focus on tapping into low-end third party support that can't function elsewhere.



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I don't think the writer read correctly what Adelman said.
What he was trying to imply is that Nintendo should back those publishers who actually try to utilize HW advantages and also to show people that those games are on par with Nintendo's own titles.
It's a matter of helping developers take a risk and communicating the quality of said game.

Nintendo also wants exclusive games on platforms and not just ports on all platforms. But we don't live in a time where that is possbile anymore.
You do need ports, especially if you get versions of the hit titles that month afer month, year after year, dominate the charts worldwide.
And that is something the writer kinda talks about but then doesn't make the necessary conclusions: it's true that 3rd parties sell the systems probably more than the actual 1st party games by MS and Sony. And if that happens, if those games are exactly what consumers want the most, if you don't have them and your exclusives are nowhere near those type of games, than you won't succeed. It's that simple.

What Nintendo needs to do first is try and make those type of games so that developers have a market to sell their own games and not the other way around. No amount of ports will help create a market on NIntendo's HW.

If they can create an ecosystem where for every MK, there's a Forza/Gran Turismo, for every Zelda, there's an Uncharted, for every Xenoblade there's Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest, etc., etc., then developers will have a place for their games and gamers will realize that they can not only play their ports, exclusive games of their liking and the next Mario, Zelda, DK, MK, Smash, etc.

To me, that's the path Nintendo needs to follow or they will never get out of distant 3rd place.



I very much agree with the author about third-party developers and publishers being intimidated by the first-party games of Nintendo. After all, the reason Activision refused to put CoD on Xbox is because Halo is such a sales juggernaut.

Yeah.

That has nothing to do with anything. It's like saying Borderlands or Destiny can't be successful because there are already so many big FPS games out there. It's a bullshit excuse, an attempt to rationalize in a way that makes Nintendo look good. If the audience is there, they will buy way more content than Nintendo can produce. That's the real point, that third-parties do not believe the audience on Nintendo home consoles will support anything but platformers and party games.

People really needs to stop believing stuff just because it's what they want to believe. A great man, Sosuke Aizen, once said, "Admiration is the furthest state from understanding.”