Forums - Politics Discussion - China has just banned the burqa in its biggest Muslim city

padib said:
Samus Aran said:

The problem is you're trying to seperate politics and religion. Other than that, there's not much wrong with what you say. 

If Islamic countries could achieve seperation of state and religion they'd be much better off. Turkey is the only Islamic country that has achieved that. It's also the most civilized (although I don't like what Erdogan is doing there at the moment...). 

Islam teaches a lot of very good things. There are parts of the religion that can empower psychotic people, but the majority of the religion is one of values and principles.

The problem here isn't the religion. The problem is that people are not being reasonable. If the people of these countries stopped abusing of each other, followed the majority of the Quran more carefully, and lived generally more gracious lives, the whole political landscape of the area would be completely different.

That's why I separate them.

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree =) None of the Abrahamic religions are all that peaceful actually. They all feature and legitimzes violance and slavery. What's WRONG with religion is their Holy Books, and Islam has the Hadiths on top of that



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Samus Aran said:

There has been much more conflict in this world between different movements of religion than religion vs. atheists. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. I don't see atheists blowing up mosques, churches or synagogues... 

But wherever atheists come to power the religious tend to suffer. The atheist government in China brutally persecutes adherents of Falun Gong. Given the white hot hostility a lot of western atheists have for religion, I don't think it's a stretch to say that many of them would do much the same here if they had the ability.

The problem with politicized religion is not the religion but the politics, and atheists surely aren't immune to that.



DanneSandin said:

Maybe I'm a little ignorant here, but isn't Indonesia pretty civilized? And in theory, there's quite a few Islmic countries that have separated state and... mosque (?), like Egypt. BUT no doubt religion is still a VERY powerful influence in all these countries.

Egypt is a militairy state from what I last heard. Turkey is the only real democracy, that's why I used it as an example. As for Indonesia, maybe, I don't know an awful lot about Indonesian politics. 



Samus Aran said:
DanneSandin said:

Well, in all fairness I DO think there actually was more than one khalif at certain points in history. And contrary to what was first intended, the khalifs formed their own dynasties.

And there hasn't always been a clear cut line between state and church in Europe; tahat's one of the characteristics of the middle ages.

Of course, hence the text between brackets lol. I could write an entire thesis about the relation between state and church in Europe, but I don't have that much time to waste on a forum! :) 

And yes, there have been multiple khalifs at certain points in history, just like there have been multiple popes. That's all pretty much self implied though, it always happens to huge empires

Yeah, the whole dynamic of State and Religion is quite interesting. Do you know anything about how much Roman religion interfered in their politics? I think I heard something about it some time ago, but can't remember it.



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DanneSandin said:

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree =) None of the Abrahamic religions are all that peaceful actually. They all feature and legitimzes violance and slavery. What's WRONG with religion is their Holy Books, and Islam has the Hadiths on top of that

The Abrahamic religions are based on morality and principle before the eyes of a creator. All three of them.

The jews have a responsability before God to be faithful to his commandments (Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, ...) lest they suffer his wrath.

The christians are called to follow in the footsteps of their messiah (if someone hits your right cheek, give them the left cheek).

The muslims have a whole law prescribing them how to be fair to those around them.

There are aspects in the books of the respective three religions that could empower a psychotic person, but almost always to the detriment of the laws and moral principles in the book itself.



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To people saying they shouldn't ban it because it's oppressive......it's China, they regulate all manner of things that aren't restricted in more moderate countries.

There's only room for one religion in China and that's the Communist Party.



badgenome said:
Samus Aran said:

There has been much more conflict in this world between different movements of religion than religion vs. atheists. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. I don't see atheists blowing up mosques, churches or synagogues... 

But wherever atheists come to power the religious tend to suffer. The atheist government in China brutally persecutes adherents of Falun Gong. Given the white hot hostility a lot of western atheists have for religion, I don't think it's a stretch to say that many of them would do much the same here if they had the ability.

The problem with politicized religion is not the religion but the politics, and atheists surely aren't immune to that.

I would wager that most Scandinavian politicians are atheists today, and probably have been for quite some time, and we're doing quite well thank you =)



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Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

Samus Aran said:
DanneSandin said:

Maybe I'm a little ignorant here, but isn't Indonesia pretty civilized? And in theory, there's quite a few Islmic countries that have separated state and... mosque (?), like Egypt. BUT no doubt religion is still a VERY powerful influence in all these countries.

Egypt is a militairy state from what I last heard. Turkey is the only real democracy, that's why I used it as an example. As for Indonesia, maybe, I don't know an awful lot about Indonesian politics. 

True dat! But sadly, it seems like Erdogan is pulling Turkey back into the Middle Ages again... Like you said before =)



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Ka-pi96 said:
Samus Aran said:

Islam is not one religion, there are different movements, hence muslims killing muslims. It's religious intolerance against religious people. Muslims are being killed by other Muslims, who just so happen to have different ideas. Of course it is also a question of politics, but that's not the only factor that's at play here. 

IS are also killing Christians in the Middle-East and other religions. 

There has been much more conflict in this world between different movements of religion than religion vs. atheists. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. I don't see atheists blowing up mosques, churches or synagogues... 

What about Hitler?

Gott mit uns



Burqas and Niqabs imo can't be accepted as everyday clothing.

People who live in a society have the obligation to interact with it and "showing your face" is the minimum requirement for that.