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Forums - Gaming - What conventions would you like to see changed in Zelda U?

Dusk said:

Wow, where to start.

For your dungeon theory, it is more or less fine.

 

Puzzles have always been part of the Zelda franchise, right from the first one. The second one is where it didn't really have much if them at all and it is generally known as the worst Zelda game even by Miyamoto himself. Part of it is the exploration and putting the puzzle together as well as problem solving. 

Sounds like you want an action oriented dungeon crawler like Diablo or... I'm having a hard time thinking of others that don't use puzzles in some aspect. Bayonetta 2, there is another but there isn't any real dungeon crawling and even a hint of a puzzle here and there. 


I don't agree that it has. In the first dungeon, you weren't solving puzzles at all. Lighting a torch just allowed you to illunimate a dark room, and pushing a block/burning a bush/bombing a wall isn't a puzzle. But sure, if you consider those puzzles, than that is the extent of the puzzle solving I want in Zelda U. Like I keep saying, Dark Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls.



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Mr Khan said:
I'd rather no hero mode at all and that they just scale the main game so that the last few dungeons *feel* like they're on hero mode.


I'd rather the whole game *feel* like it's on Hero mode... Hence the option for Hero Mode, lol. Even hero mode isn't very challenging, so I wish they'd tweak it a lot to make it more challenging. No bottling fairies. Much more aggressive enemy AI. That sort of thing.

Boss fights that are actually in any way challenging.



Samus Aran said:

I don't think a game needs to be hard to be fun. As long as the bosses are fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfcbuxcsqBo

This is the best boss battle I can think off and it wasn't all that hard. It was fun and it felt like you fought a real human being that learns from his mistakes. 

That battle is what every Zelda boss should be like. A PUZZLE!


I think that a big reason why Zelda became as big as it is today was because it was hard. I don't think that that type of boss battle should be at all what Zelda battles should be. They should be challenging, not a puzzle. They should take skill. Like they used to.



spemanig said:
DanneSandin said:

Did you just quote my post twice? :p regarding ur answer to my TP example of enemies being mini puzzles; what I liked about them, and is present in both OoT, and to a lesser extent the original LoZ, is that you had to learn a new technic to take them down. In LoZ u had to stab the darknuts in the back, and this is only a continuation of that. Learn how to take down certain enemies. Trick to attack you, roll to the side and stab them in the back. That kind of thing.

I dont see how we cant both have the kinds of dungeons u describe with a few puzzles thrown in? I to would line big, maze like dungeons with intiminating atmosphere and enemies, but Id also like to use my brain once in a while solving certain problems.


I did lol. The thing is, those aren't puzzles. Attacking an enemy from the back isn't a puzzle, it's just where that particular enemy is vulnerable. If that's all you meant, then we're in agreement. But I still don't think specific items should be the only way to kill some enemies. Every weapon you get past the sword and arrow should be placed there to diversify your arcenal. Some enemies can be killed easier with bombs, for example, but if you wanted, you should be able to beat the entire game with just the sword, shield, and arrows.

I have many issues with puzzles in Zelda dungeons. They're hardly ever even good, challenging, or satisfying. They depend on lock and key item gimmicks that only evaporates any tension that could have been built in that dungeon. There's nothing scary or intimidating about sitting down and solving a puzzle. They force linear dungeon design. The only truely great ones are ones like the water temple in OoT (3D) where the puzzle spanned the entire dungeon instead of just in isolated rooms, which works completely against the brutal maze-like dungeon design that Zelda dungeons should be.

If they were called something else, didn't focus on combat at all, was just one huge, complex, and intricate puzzle that spanned through the entire area, and didn't depend on item gimmicks like even the Water Temple did, then I wouldn't mind their inclusion as a side objective to the standard 8 dungeons. Maybe they're specifically called Temples, there are only 3 of them, and they're created by the Godesses to test the wits of the hero, and you get some completely optional, yet extremely useful, items or upgrades there. I'd be down for that.

But no puzzles in the main dungeons.

Well, that's why I said "mini puzzles" ;) And the thing is, they are puzzles in the sense that you have to figure them out. Sort of. It's just not hack'n'slash, although, I DO want those kind of enemies as well. But that's "canon fodder" ;) And I agree that items should be optional on enemies, kinda like Mega Man and bosses. But items could and maybe should allow you to explore certain areas in either the Overworld, or the dungeons, that you can't reach without said item. Just as a bonus area. And puzzles could work in the same vein; "if you wanna access this restricted area (which is in no way obligatory) you need to solve this puzzle".

Dungeons can be intimidating with puzzles though; do it wrong and more enemies come, or a trap is triggered. Or, before you solve the puzzle you'll need to take care of these two mini bosses. Things like that could work quite well.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

spemanig said:
Samus Aran said:

I don't think a game needs to be hard to be fun. As long as the bosses are fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfcbuxcsqBo

This is the best boss battle I can think off and it wasn't all that hard. It was fun and it felt like you fought a real human being that learns from his mistakes. 

That battle is what every Zelda boss should be like. A PUZZLE!


I think that a big reason why Zelda became as big as it is today was because it was hard. I don't think that that type of boss battle should be at all what Zelda battles should be. They should be challenging, not a puzzle. They should take skill. Like they used to.

But from what I hear, the bosses in DS2 isn't all that good; it sounds as if more of a wait-for-the-boss-attack-for-you-to-counter-attack thing. And that's not what I want from Zelda. I'd much rather fool the boss to attack me, so that it shows its weak spot so I can attack



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

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DanneSandin said:

Well, that's why I said "mini puzzles" ;) And the thing is, they are puzzles in the sense that you have to figure them out. Sort of. It's just not hack'n'slash, although, I DO want those kind of enemies as well. But that's "canon fodder" ;) And I agree that items should be optional on enemies, kinda like Mega Man and bosses. But items could and maybe should allow you to explore certain areas in either the Overworld, or the dungeons, that you can't reach without said item. Just as a bonus area. And puzzles could work in the same vein; "if you wanna access this restricted area (which is in no way obligatory) you need to solve this puzzle".

Dungeons can be intimidating with puzzles though; do it wrong and more enemies come, or a trap is triggered. Or, before you solve the puzzle you'll need to take care of these two mini bosses. Things like that could work quite well.


If items are used to create logical shortcuts through dungeons like bombing walls of connected rooms in Zelda 1, then I can get behind that. I can't get behind halting my progress to solve what is always a mundane puzzle. And don't think I can get behind item exclusive secret areas either unless it's for inconsequential rewards like a bunch of rupees or something like that.

Like I said. Sprawling dungeons where you're solving one macro puzzle throughout work if they are separate from the main dungeons. Have those be separate, though. There's not many puzzles in Zelda where you get them wrong. You just don't get them correct yet. Also all of those things aren't causing intimidation through puzzle solving. The puzzles are just acting as a tedious key to open a door. You take your time solving a puzzle, you get it wrong, and then your intimidated by enemies or a trap. You are intimidated by two mini bosses, and then calm down to solve a puzzle.



DanneSandin said:

But from what I hear, the bosses in DS2 isn't all that good; it sounds as if more of a wait-for-the-boss-attack-for-you-to-counter-attack thing. And that's not what I want from Zelda. I'd much rather fool the boss to attack me, so that it shows its weak spot so I can attack


I don't think I've ever played a Zelda game where you aren't just waiting for the boss to attack so you can counter attack aside from Zelda 1. And you're never fooling a boss into attacking you. You're waiting for them to because until they do, they are usually literally invincable and you have no other option but to wait. With Dark Souls, the game teaches you to create openings for yourself. It can teach you to be patient or be punished. They are almost always vulnerable, but they also know that you're vulnerable and will try to harm you. They are defensive through offense, which Zelda can stand to learn. I'd actually rather more of the boss fights be aggressive like in Bloodborne than passive like in Dark Souls as it fits Zelda better in my opinion.

Things like interrupting a boss mid attack to stun them and create an opening is what I really want to see in Zelda bosses. You don't need to do that, but it would limit your effectiveness if you didn't. Options. With recent Zelda bosses, there's always only one way to defeat them. In the Souls games and Bloodborne, there are many. Since bomb arrows are confirmed, let that be a way to stun large bosses. If you are able to score a hit on them while they are attacking, then they become dazed temperarily, opening them up for a follow up, however the bosses actually are smart enough to dodge obvious attacks. Same with the sheild bash. If you can block a powerful hit, there's a chance you can daze the boss, but they can also punish you by knocking you off your balance if you abuse it. The parry system in WW would have been so much better if there were no visual cue. If you could only parry by paying attention to the way your enemy telegraphs an attack and also the alert sound, it would have felt less cheap. Also, they should have had you manually attack the enemy after you parry rather than it simply being automatic. Press A to parry and then time pressing B correctly to successfully execute the counter attack.

But yeah, the boss fights in Dark Souls are awesome.



spemanig said:
Samus Aran said:

I don't think a game needs to be hard to be fun. As long as the bosses are fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfcbuxcsqBo

This is the best boss battle I can think off and it wasn't all that hard. It was fun and it felt like you fought a real human being that learns from his mistakes. 

That battle is what every Zelda boss should be like. A PUZZLE!


I think that a big reason why Zelda became as big as it is today was because it was hard. I don't think that that type of boss battle should be at all what Zelda battles should be. They should be challenging, not a puzzle. They should take skill. Like they used to.

I'd rather be tested on my intellect than my reflexes. Puzzles need to stay, they just need a breath of fresh air. And that's what ALBW provided. 



Samus Aran said:

I'd rather be tested on my intellect than my reflexes. Puzzles need to stay, they just need a breath of fresh air. And that's what ALBW provided. 


ALBW is my favorite 2D Zelda, and it's dungeons were the worst part. The puzzles don't test your intellect. They try and trick you into feeling smart. They need to go, or be completely separate and optional from the dungeons. Working your way through a labyrinth is testing your intellect, far more effectively than any modern Zelda does.



spemanig said:
Samus Aran said:

I'd rather be tested on my intellect than my reflexes. Puzzles need to stay, they just need a breath of fresh air. And that's what ALBW provided. 


ALBW is my favorite 2D Zelda, and it's dungeons were the worst part. The puzzles don't test your intellect. They try and trick you into feeling smart. They need to go, or be completely separate and optional from the dungeons. Working your way through a labyrinth is testing your intellect, far more effectively than any modern Zelda does.

The dungeons were easy and fun. The gimmick (wall painting) is the most creative thing to ever come out the Zelda franchise. If Aunuma (what's his name) thought of that, he should stay! :p 

There was also plenty of exploration in that game. I just felt very smart when I found the red tunic and the master ore in that Dark Temple (I think it was that one). Maiamai >>>>>>>>>>>>> Skulltullas (which I never bothered finding)