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Forums - Politics - The Qur'an Exposed Thread

 

Is Nintentacle Religionintentacle?

Yes. 6 75.00%
 
No. 1 12.50%
 
Maybe so. 1 12.50%
 
Total:8
DeletedAccount3 on 19 October 2014

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DeletedAccount3 on 19 October 2014

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Wright on 19 October 2014

Religion is flawed, but this is because humans are also flawed.



Immersiveunreality on 19 October 2014
Nintentacle said:
Xenostar said:
Nintentacle said:

Wouldn't call it hate. I'm pretty much asking Muslim people to explain what they would call "So-called contradictions", and to show me where Muhammad is in the Torah and/or Gospel.

Hate, in my opinion, would be generalizing Muslims and not listening to anything they are saying.

Edit: Or insulting them, of course.


Your going on the offensive, and asking them to defend there religous books, how do you think this will possibly ever end well, you dont even open with a reason discussion, just a quote youve probably read from somewhere, because my apologise but i highly doubt you have read the Qur'an, even tho you feel you have enough knowledge to bash it. 

What I want is a good apologist answer.


You do not earn an answer this way.Asuming its apologist sounds really pretentious of you btw.



sundin13 on 19 October 2014
LurkerJ said:
sundin13 said:
LurkerJ said:

I am not asking about the purpose of life. I am asking why Allah calls himself the most merciful. A grand gesture of mercy would've been not creating the world we live in at all. But Allah did create this merciless world. The purpose you guys are talking about makes the matter even worse. It also leads to another question: Why did Allah need to create and test his creatures? 

(I know very little of the Qur'an, but a decent amount about the Christian Bible, so consider my expertise to be in general theology)

I assume the mercy comes in by the fact that Allah/God gives us a chance to have eternal salvation. We unfortunately threw away so many of the chances we were given by eating of the forbidden fruit and murdering Jesus and repeatedly showing our sinful nature, but God still loves us. He has not destroyed us, could that not be considered the ultimate act of mercy by an all powerful creator? He is giving us all a chance to prove we are good, is that not generous? 

I don't believe so. I think destroying this earth would be a form mercy. Our world is full of starving people, sick babies, wars, theft and pain and problems that can't be solved without Allah's intervention. But Allah doesn't intervene anymore. I don't need to grieve this earth if it's completely destructed. I will not miss it.

Why create and test creatures? Well that is a much more difficult question. God is not human, and thus he doesn't use human logic. I could humanize God by talking about the desire to create and the desire to love and the desire to be loved, but that is humanizing. We can't know how the Creator thinks and as such, I don't think that question holds much merit.

I disagree. I think it's a good question. We can speculate the answer and maybe if there is an afterlife, we will know who was right.

What you are saying made interested in knowing the traits of Allah mentioned in Islamic teahcings. I did a small investigation just now and it seems that Allah gets angry. Allah forgives. Allah calls himself/herself PATIENT. Allah admits to having these human traits and you can find more mentioned in the quran. Allah doesn't shy away from describing himself repeatedly with terms humans understand to let us know that his human side is unmatched by his creatures, which makes him a non human and his traits not so understandable yet he reveals them to us without a care if we understand them or not. So why do you think we can't handle his other non human sides that he hasn't revealed?

Allah also describes himself as beautiful, which is weird, because beauty is subjective. Who told him he is beautful? A mirror? he is beautiful to whom? 

LurkerJ said:

This raises more questions than it answers. Allah created naturally destructive creatures. If Allah is merciful, he should forgive us all for acting in our nature. The answer to your question would be Yes! Naturally destructive humans deserve his mercy. 

We are not beasts. Beasts are forgiven for their nature, we are given knowledge and wisdom and the ability to choose between right and wrong. We are not naturally good or evil, we make the choice of who to be. And yet, we are still forgiven for our sins when we make the wrong choice. God understands that we will make mistakes and we will sin, that is why he forgives us if we truly repent. Is that not also mercy?

Yes. That's mercy. In Islam, however, Allah promises hell for eternity for some of his creatures, which is stupid to be honest. Whatever bad deeds I do in 70 years or shouldn't grant me hell for eternity, that's just cruel, especially for a flawed weak creature as myself. Whatever pain I inflicted on Allah's creatures in this life (under Allah's own very eyes) can be inflicted back in the afterlife. Hypothetically speaking, I tortured and killed 100 people. Allah should Toture and kill me 100 times, and a few times more in the afterlife if he likes. Now that would be somewhatl fair. But toturing me for eternity? Come on.

Allah is merciful sometimes, yes. But that's not what I am arguing. I am simply dismissing the title Allah gives for himself "The most merciful" title. Allah is simply not the most merciful.




a. But the heaven that waits for those who pass through those trials with pure hearts is greater than any earthly joy. You are thinking solely in terms of life on earth and forgetting about the promise of heaven. Yes, life is difficult and we are faced with painful trials, but if we prove that we are good, then we will be rewarded infinitely.

b. Well, I guess I was thinking about generic creater as opposed to Allah specifically. If we were to humanize the Creator, then I think it is fairly easy to see why he would want to create a people to love and who would love him. I don't know if that explanation has any merit, but what is an almighty being if that being is the only thing in the universe? What is a King without a Kingdom?

c. Honestly, I've always disliked the concept of hell also. It feels like it was designed to manipulate people into being religious out of fear instead of out of love which is wrong in my opinion. Is a good deed done out of fear of eternal damnation a good deed at all? 

I personally interpret the Catholic hell as being the absence of heaven. Because of that, I think someone else would be better to answer this question, however, I think we have all been given chances to do good and ask forgiveness.

The phrasing "most merciful" I think has a lot to do with the power that the Creator possesses. As a human looking down on ants, we see them as weak and insignificant, yet this all powerful being rewards us with the potential for life's greatest gifts and forgiveness. You are thinking about mercy on a person to person (equal to equal) level, but I think it could be interpreted as being "most merciful" due to the god to person (infinite to finite) level.

I also think that religion is extremely personal. I think that every person should interpret religious texts and draw their own conclusion. My experience with organized religion is that it is tainted by the imperfections of man...



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DeletedAccount3 on 19 October 2014

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avais1993 on 19 October 2014

There you go pal, a video explaining it, full with references and everything, have fun looking it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRw25KZG0vE

 

if you want a better video with a better explanation

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPZjDErZIBo



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VXIII on 19 October 2014
LurkerJ said:
VXIII said:
LurkerJ said:

I'm sorry that I'm not interested in going into so many details. In general, being the most merciful is one side of God "character". God also describes himself as "Allah is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution." God is merciful to people who are proven worthy and seek his mercy in this life. Even though God would like everyone to be good, that's why every sin can be redeemed, but humans were given free will, some choose for God not to be merciful on them (by their actions). The reward is promised to be worth it, and the punishment is only fair... From God perspective of course. And yes, in Quran God mention some people that would have preferred if they weren't ever created. From that angle God indeed is not merciful on them, only because they were proven unworthy. God is also just, the "ignorant" humanity was given a way to determine and make decisions (mind and consciousness). Again God is most merciful only under certain circumstances.

Animals, you are looking at this subject from humanitarian angle. Let look at it as if we were animals. They don't have the awareness and consciousness that people have (which could be the meaning of the "Trust"). Hunting one another is not a "sin" as they have no way to know good fom evil. Their "suffering" is not really suffering it only reflects the nature of this world, they are not a subject of God testing. They are not the "point" from God perspective... And I have no knowledge of what is supposed to be their fate in the eternal afterlife to be honest.

As of you weren't asked to hold the trust, I believe it is the nature of humanity that was asked (the way humanity was created) not every human. That how I always understood it. Ignorance might be the nature of humanity, but humans were given ways to overcome it.

--------------------

Sorry if I'm not going to comment further. I just think most of what you're asking about should be self answered.



Nintentacle on 19 October 2014
comflash2 said:
Nintentacle said:

I am talking about from a Christian point of view.

The Jesus I believe in is the Son of God (See my above post responding to Leadified)

The Jesus in Islam that is sent to convince people that he is not the Son of God, and promotes Islam/Mahdi is basically the Second Beast in Revelation 13 who preforms miracles to convince people of the Antichrist, and, if it were possible, deceiving the very elect, or true Christians according to Matthew 24:24. False Christ preforming miracles?)

Matthew 24:24 reads, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

 

Mahdi can't perform miracle. He just a leader that unite the muslim. Dajjal is the one can perform miracle. I think u need to refer back to your source and confirm either u really mean Mahdi or Dajjal as antichrist. As i told you, Muslim (including Mahdi) love Jesis Christ and we agree with mirace given to him by Allah (raise the dead etc). Here is some reference the miracle of Jesus in Quran that i copied below. The different between Muslim and Christian merely on either Jesus is God. Jesus himself in the bible never claim he is he god. The church interpretation is the one claiming Jesus is the god. I heard multiple Christian scholar agree with that statement (in debate) but they claim Jesus use different way to hint his follower that he is god. I don't want to hurt any christian feeling here, because Quran ask Muslim to talk to the people of book (jew and christian) about similarities and not differences. Ali-Imran 3:64 "Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."

Miracle of Jesus in Quran:

“…and We made her (Mary) and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.” (Quran 21:91)

“And We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear miracles” (Quran 2:87)

“When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary!  Is your Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven?  He said: Observe your duty to God, if ye are true believers.  They said: We desire to eat of it and our hearts be at rest, and that We may know that you have spoken truth to us, and that We may be witnesses thereof.  Jesus, son of Mary, said: 'O God, our Lord, send down for us a Table laden with food out of heaven, that shall be for us a recurring festival, the first and last of us, and a miracle from You.  And provide us our sustenance, for You are the best of providers!” (Quran 5:112-114)

“He shall speak to people while still in the cradle, and in manhood, and he shall be from the righteous.” (Quran 3:46)

“I am indeed a slave of God.  He has given me the Book and made me a Prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I may be.  And He has enjoined upon me prayers, and to pay the alms, as long as I live and (He has made me) kind to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed.  And may Peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and on the Day I shall be raised to life.” (Quran 19:30-33)

“I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission.” (Quran 3:49)

“I also heal the blind and the leper.” (Quran 3:49)

“…and I bring to life the dead, by the permission of God.” (Quran 3:49)

“I inform you too of what things you eat, and what you store up in your houses.  Surely in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.” (Quran 3:49)

I am saying that the Muslim Jesus (It's not the same thing: Christians believe he is the Son of God, was crucified, and rose from the dead, Muslims believe he is just a prophet, and was never crucified/rose from the dead) is th Christian False Prophet. We think the Muslim Jesus (Who is just a prophet) is not the true Jesus.

The False Prophet will preform miracles and decieve many into accepting the Anti-Christ, and make everyone get a mark on their right hand or forehead that lets you buy and sell, and make all worship the Anti-Chrirst. You will be killed if you don't worship the Anti-Christ, but you will go to the Lake of Fire forever if you do.

Like I've said before, It's very similar.

Antichrist: A person of Satan who conquers all nations, makes a one world religion, kills Jews and Christians, peace covenant with Israel.

Mahdi: A person of God who conquers all nations, makes a one world religion, kills Jews and Christians, peace covenant with Israel.

 

False Prophet: An evil supporter of Antichrist who convinces many to accept the Antichrist's words.

Jesus in Islam: A righteous supporter of Mahdi who covinces many to accept Mahdi's words.

 

Jesus in Christianity: Wages war against Antichrist, Antichrist is thrown in Lake of Fire.

Dajjal: Fights war against Mahdi, Mahdi's God (I.e., Allah) abhors the person who calls themselves King of Kings (I.e., Dajjal/Christian Jesus).



Nintentacle on 19 October 2014
Frank_kc said:
Its really sad when you try to expose a religion without even reading about it. Let me tell you something about the Bible and I will give it to you by reference. Let me show you some of things which you may not be aware of as a christian

1- Genesis chapter 19 verse 30.. Start reading about LOT having sex with his daughters !!!
2- Genesis chapter 35 verse 22 : Ruben, a son of Jacob, having sex with his mother!!!
3-Genesis chapter 38 : Judah, the father of Jewish Race, having sex with his daughter in Law!!!!

Is this really what you believe in?

None of those things were commanded by God. Do you know what was commanded by God, though?

"And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"

Leviticus 20:11

"And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister’s nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity. "

Leviticus 20:17

 

This is almost like saying: "Cain killed Abel, so the Bible accepts murder."