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Forums - Nintendo - Bayonetta 2 - an expression of freedom and not sexism

 

Is Bayonetta 2 sexist?

No 308 71.46%
 
Yes 73 16.94%
 
See Results 50 11.60%
 
Total:431
GamechaserBE said:
It is not what she does it is what the game does, read in reviews the game will have plenty (or to much) close up of her crotch and boobs..

I did read the reviews and noted that feature and in my opinion the feature is justified in that it contributrs to Bayonetta 2's over the top exhibitionist style.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

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curl-6 said:
pokoko said:
I don't know if I would call it sexist but it certainly uses sex to sell copies. Now, I don't actually have a problem with that, as I think people go crazy with what "sexist" means, but please don't throw words like "liberated" in there as a counter. Bayonetta is as much about sex as a selling tool as any of those other Japanese games people attack so often. Trying to rationalize that away because you like the game changes nothing. She doesn't do stripper moves or torture angels because she's secure in her femininity, she does it because the creators thought it was sexy and that it would attract guys.

You're confusing in-game character with marketing.

The game uses sex to advertise itself. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But Bayonetta isn't sexist, because it's not portraying a character subservient to the will of men or whose sexuality is shackled, it portrays a strog, confident and empowered woman who kicks arse and takes names.

Huh?  I just said that I don't consider it sexist and that I don't have a moral problem with it.  

That doesn't mean that I don't think it's stupid that she's spreading her legs in the middle of fight, though.  The game uses over the top sexuality as a device to sell games to young men.  She might be confident and strong but she's also doing stripper moves for no actual reason.  That certainly is part of her in-game character.  It's no different than the characters in DoA wearing skimpy outfits into battle.



pokoko said:

That doesn't mean that I don't think it's stupid that she's spreading her legs in the middle of fight, though.  The game uses over the top sexuality as a device to sell games to young men.  She might be confident and strong but she's also doing stripper moves for no actual reason.  That certainly is part of her in-game character.  It's no different than the characters in DoA wearing skimpy outfits into battle.

Sexuality is a selling point, yes. Where we differ is that in Bayonetta's case I see it as more empowerment than reduction.



I think the fact that people make such a big deal out of this is more unintentionally "sexist" than the game itself. Male video game characters have been flaunting their sexuality for years, but no one says a peep about it because most gamers are men and they don't think about it. Case in-point, pervy comments about the player character's ass abound while playing as Lara Croft or Jill Valentine, while no one even seems to notice (except jokingly) while playing as Solid Snake. There are extremely sexually charged characters like Dante in video games (say, Devil May Cry and Bayonetta were created by the same guy, what a mysterious coincidence), but no one raises a stink about them.

It's a cultural problem. Sexually confident male characters are normal while sexually confident female characters make men feel uncomfortable. We don't know how to react to them because they're uncommon. We think we're supposed to be upset and cry sexism.

Meanwhile, this has been the norm for male characters for a long time and I think Bayonetta is a pioneer for female video game characters. Take a look at that last picture, maybe you're familiar with it. It's obscene, it's from one of the most disgusting video games ever committed to cartridge (or disc). I also think it's fairly representative of many game scenarios: the man is the protagonist, the woman is a sex object. Obviously most games as a whole cannot be boiled down to such a simple equation, which is why that one stands out as an abomination. But there are many individual scenes in video games (and all media) in which this is the case. The problem is that there are very few reverse examples of this, where the sexually agressive protagonist is a woman.

Check that Asura's Wrath picture again, it's from the hot springs episode. That's a clear case of objectifying female characters in video games, right? But the men are also naked. They aren't being objectified even though they're naked. They are the characters you are meant to relate to, they are the aggressors. They are the ones doing the objectifying. Bayonetta is that character, she's just a woman, and (as far as I'm aware) there are no male characters in her games to take the place of those hot spring attendants as the 'sex objects.' Just because she's naked and flaunting her sexuality (as many male characters have done in many video games) doesn't mean that she's being objectified or that it's sexist. I think it's just the opposite.

It's hard to convey all of this, I hope I've gotten my thoughts across articulately enough.



SlayerRondo said:

A someone who does not own a WiiU I have been waiting for the current catolog of games to justify the purchase for me. And with games like Wind Waker HD, Super Mario 3D World, Mario Kart U and Pikmin 3 I was one game away from wanting to get a WiiU and that game is Bayonetta 2.

Having seen the great review scores for the game going up I was very happy to see the overwhelmingly positive feedback with all reviews at the time giving the game a 9/10 or higher, bar one review from Polygon.

Over time I have had to temper myself from getting upset over review scores that may be lower than the average for a game am now anticipating. So rather than commenting on polygon I went and read the review to see why they did not like the game.

To summarize why polygon reviewed the game lower is the over the top displays of sexuality in Bayonetta 2. Having read the review I was having a hard time believing that this was the case.

To begin with the character of Bayonetta in the game is in no way subservient to any male or female character as one would expect of a character who is simply an object. Rather than Bayonetta's baring it all style overshadowing her personality it matches it perfectly in a way that really shows us her own over the top attitude and liberation.

The reviewer may have been uncomfortable with what the game was trying to do, but I believe that a game reviewers should try to review games based on their quality rather than their themes. If a game can be criticized for being to sexual than can games like Gears of War and The Last of Us have points taken off for being to violent?

Let me know what you think.


Apparently you didn't read that one notorious review where they marked TLOU down for "being too violent"



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curl-6 said:
pokoko said:

That doesn't mean that I don't think it's stupid that she's spreading her legs in the middle of fight, though.  The game uses over the top sexuality as a device to sell games to young men.  She might be confident and strong but she's also doing stripper moves for no actual reason.  That certainly is part of her in-game character.  It's no different than the characters in DoA wearing skimpy outfits into battle.

Sexuality is a selling point, yes. Where we differ is that in Bayonetta's case I see it as more empowerment than reduction.

Camera panning around her crotch is empowerment? okay.



Tamron said:
SlayerRondo said:

A someone who does not own a WiiU I have been waiting for the current catolog of games to justify the purchase for me. And with games like Wind Waker HD, Super Mario 3D World, Mario Kart U and Pikmin 3 I was one game away from wanting to get a WiiU and that game is Bayonetta 2.

Having seen the great review scores for the game going up I was very happy to see the overwhelmingly positive feedback with all reviews at the time giving the game a 9/10 or higher, bar one review from Polygon.

Over time I have had to temper myself from getting upset over review scores that may be lower than the average for a game am now anticipating. So rather than commenting on polygon I went and read the review to see why they did not like the game.

To summarize why polygon reviewed the game lower is the over the top displays of sexuality in Bayonetta 2. Having read the review I was having a hard time believing that this was the case.

To begin with the character of Bayonetta in the game is in no way subservient to any male or female character as one would expect of a character who is simply an object. Rather than Bayonetta's baring it all style overshadowing her personality it matches it perfectly in a way that really shows us her own over the top attitude and liberation.

The reviewer may have been uncomfortable with what the game was trying to do, but I believe that a game reviewers should try to review games based on their quality rather than their themes. If a game can be criticized for being to sexual than can games like Gears of War and The Last of Us have points taken off for being to violent?

Let me know what you think.


Apparently you didn't read that one notorious review where they marked TLOU down for "being too violent"


tell me the sites name so i will know to never visit them



Tamron said:
curl-6 said:
pokoko said:

That doesn't mean that I don't think it's stupid that she's spreading her legs in the middle of fight, though.  The game uses over the top sexuality as a device to sell games to young men.  She might be confident and strong but she's also doing stripper moves for no actual reason.  That certainly is part of her in-game character.  It's no different than the characters in DoA wearing skimpy outfits into battle.

Sexuality is a selling point, yes. Where we differ is that in Bayonetta's case I see it as more empowerment than reduction.

Camera panning around her crotch is empowerment? okay.

Bayonetta owns her sexuality, she has fun with it, she's conscious of and unashamed of it. She's not some innoent vulnerable thing exploited by the camera.



Tamron said:

Camera panning around her crotch is empowerment? okay.

Absolutely. It's indisputable that Bayonetta is empowered by her sexuality, and she embodies this philosophy as completely as possible. She is very literally empowered when the camera provides an "indecent" view of her body, because she willed it to do so. Her behavior is her own choice. She uses her sexuality as a weapon, and she is confident in it. Contrast the mechanics of Bayonetta with something like Senran Kagura: in that game, characters take clothing damage as they are hurt. Their exposure is not a choice, it is not empowering. When Bayonetta unleashes powerful attacks, her clothes are stripped from her body. She knows this will happen, she wants it to happen, she embraces it. She does not cower and blush in embarrassment. She poses like a supermodel.

This is part of what defines Bayonetta as a character. She is sexually confident and she is very loud about it. Yes, even when it's just camerawork, she is empowered. After all, you (the player) have no say in the matter. You do not choose to zoom in for an up-close look at her crotch. Bayonetta will dole out titillating camera angles as she sees fit. Does it make you feel uncomfortable? Does it make you feel like you aren't really in control of the game? That's because you're not in control. Bayonetta is in control. That is the definition of empowerment.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this. Maybe Platinum just likes T&A, and doesn't care about the characters they're making or whether their actions match their personality appropriately. It's possible. But Kamiya created this character, so I sincerely doubt it.



curl-6 said:
bubblegamer said:

 Women who show their private parts as the main attraction are liberated. I know the japanese culture well and so i know it's normal there, but don't act like this is how it should be.

Why not? What's wrong with women being sexually empowered?

Where did you learn that sexually empowered women need to shove their crotch in your face? This is nothing but a male fantasy.