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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Trials Fusion runs at 1080p/60 on PS4, 900p/60 on Xbox One

Pemalite said:
vivster said:

Of course that was a rhetorical question since I very well know what makes it harder.

It's just so easy to attack the developers. It's the same thing Sony fans did last gen when devs weren't able or willing to figure out the cell.

In this case I think both versions are not optimized at all and that's when the PS4 gets ahead with more power.

I don't even think the level of expertise to optimize is the issue. In the end it's about if the devs care enough. Which begs the real question:

Why don't devs and publishers care enough to put more work into one version of a game? That the X1s second biggest problem. The power disparity is one thing but apparently devs und publishers do not care about putting more effort into the X1 version of a game. Which falls back to MS. They were the ones responsible for the hardware so it should be their responsibility to make the devs and publishers care about parity. Be it monetarily or with additional workforce from MS' side. If a game fails to reach parity it's on MS' hands because they are responsible for the initial product that apparently makes it harder for devs.

Blaming the devs even though I assume they worked even harder on the X1 is just not nice.


It's not about whether developers are lazy or if they care or not, it all comes down to money and time.
Do you spent untold-manhours in engine development, which may protract development time by potentially months, or... Ship something "good enough"?
Time is money and brings in no revenue.
The most extreme cases are when games are entirely re-built from scratch, sometimes delaying the game by years, that's revenue that the publisher and developer don't get sooner.

Arkaign said:
With the rather large gap in GPU grunt combined with GDDR5 v DDR3, I'm honestly more shocked that anyone could possibly be surprised by this. Get used to it. :

Fun fact: DDR3 can be faster than GDDR5. (Not that the Xbox One's memory setup is faster, but, the point still stands.)

 

With an equal GPU generation, ddr3 is always slower than gddr5, by a fairly huge measure. Look up the benches of the 7750 ddr3 vs 7750 gddr5. The performance is off by 50%.





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DX12 will jizz all over Trials



...not much time to post anymore, used to be awesome on here really good fond memories from VGchartz...

PSN: Skeeuk - XBL: SkeeUK - PC: Skeeuk

really miss the VGCHARTZ of 2008 - 2013...

Arkaign said:

With an equal GPU generation, ddr3 is always slower than gddr5, by a fairly huge measure. Look up the benches of the 7750 ddr3 vs 7750 gddr5. The performance is off by 50%.




Generation has absolutely nothing to do with it, you fell for the marketing, hook line and sinker.

DDR3 1333mhz on a 512bit bus is as fast as GDDR5 1333mhz on a 256but bus.
DDR3 1600mhz on a 512bit bus would thus by extension be faster than GDDR5 1333mhz on a 256bit bus.

Obviously you double the clocks for the DDR3 and Quaddruple the clock for GDDR5, but DDR3 can both be cheaper and faster than GDDR5 under the right circumstance.

Thus it comes down to implementation rather than memory technology.

S.T.A.G.E. said:


MS thought their hardware was up to snuff until last year in February when sony revealed the PS4 specs. Thats when they ran franctic for the hills because everything Sony does scares them for some reason. They jumped on the clock speed and everything as quick as they could. It was all over the gaming news and all. Sony not only backed them into a corner technologically, it was almost like a real-life check-mate. Its definitely a hardware issue, but is not as much of one as they are making it. I am sure they are mad at AMD for giving Sony a superior graphics card. There were leaks that MS wasnt happy with AMD when Sony's specs were revealed. They expected AMD to give them the jump on Sony's plans but AMD kept quiet. MS will need this cloud to work. If it doesn't Sony proved it was all hardware.

Nah.
AMD would have offered both companies their entire I.P of graphics and central processing units for use in the consoles, it was upto Microsoft and Sony to decide what they wanted.

Essentially though because Microsoft wanted 8Gb of Ram from the out-set they settled with DDR3 as it's cheap and plentifull, but in order to make up for the performance deficit by going that route they had to make up for it with eSRAM.
The eSRAM takes up a ton of transisters on the die, which drives up chip complexity and costs, thus by extension something had to give, which just happened to be the GPU.
Microsoft could have went with DDR3 on a 512bit bus which would have provided enough bandwidth, but that would have driven up PCB complexity and forced the use of a more transister-hungry memory controller.


Sony however, were origionally going to go with 4Gb of Ram, because of costs.
However before the consoles launch, higher density memory became available which made the upgrade from 4Gb to 8Gb actually feasible, it was a gamble that paid off and Sony should be commended for it, they didn't have to throw a beefier memory controller at the console, they didn't need more memory modules on the motherboard and it didn't drive up PCB complexity.

Over time, the Xbox's DDR3 is going to continue to get more and more expensive as the PC market shifts over to DDR4 and it's derivatives, the Playstation 4's memory however should get cheaper due to scales of economies, with a fast selling console and low-end PC cards starting to use GDDR5 more and more, production will be scaled up so all those devices will benefit.

On the flip side, Microsoft can take advantage of newer fabrication process's to cost reduce it's machine.

Essentially, there was no colluding or one company annoyed at another, just one company put the puzzle together better than the other this time, which is great for the consumer, competition is a wonderfull thing.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Arkaign said:

With an equal GPU generation, ddr3 is always slower than gddr5, by a fairly huge measure. Look up the benches of the 7750 ddr3 vs 7750 gddr5. The performance is off by 50%.




Generation has absolutely nothing to do with it, you fell for the marketing, hook line and sinker.

DDR3 1333mhz on a 512bit bus is as fast as GDDR5 1333mhz on a 256but bus.
DDR3 1600mhz on a 512bit bus would thus by extension be faster than GDDR5 1333mhz on a 256bit bus.

Obviously you double the clocks for the DDR3 and Quaddruple the clock for GDDR5, but DDR3 can both be cheaper and faster than GDDR5 under the right circumstance.

S.T.A.G.E. said:


MS thought their hardware was up to snuff until last year in February when sony revealed the PS4 specs. Thats when they ran franctic for the hills because everything Sony does scares them for some reason. They jumped on the clock speed and everything as quick as they could. It was all over the gaming news and all. Sony not only backed them into a corner technologically, it was almost like a real-life check-mate. Its definitely a hardware issue, but is not as much of one as they are making it. I am sure they are mad at AMD for giving Sony a superior graphics card. There were leaks that MS wasnt happy with AMD when Sony's specs were revealed. They expected AMD to give them the jump on Sony's plans but AMD kept quiet. MS will need this cloud to work. If it doesn't Sony proved it was all hardware.

Nah.
AMD would have offered both companies their entire I.P of graphics and central processing units for use in the consoles, it was upto Microsoft and Sony to decide what they wanted.

Essentially though because Microsoft wanted 8Gb of Ram from the out-set they settled with DDR3 as it's cheap and plentifull, but in order to make up for the performance deficit by going that route they had to make up for it with eSRAM.
The eSRAM takes up a ton of transisters on the die, which drives up chip complexity and costs, thus by extension something had to give, which just happened to be the GPU.
Microsoft could have went with DDR3 on a 512bit bus which would have provided enough bandwidth, but that would have driven up PCB complexity and forced the use of a more transister-hungry memory controller.


Sony however, were origionally going to go with 4Gb of Ram, because of costs.
However before the consoles launch, higher density memory became available which made the upgrade from 4Gb to 8Gb actually feasible, it was a gamble that paid off and Sony should be commended for it, they didn't have to throw a beefier memory controller at the console, they didn't need more memory modules on the motherboard and it didn't drive up PCB complexity.

Over time, the Xbox's DDR3 is going to continue to get more and more expensive as the PC market shifts over to DDR4 and it's derivatives, the Playstation 4's memory however should get cheaper due to scales of economies, with a fast selling console and low-end PC cards starting to use GDDR5 more and more, production will be scaled up so all those devices will benefit.

On the flip side, Microsoft can take advantage of newer fabrication process's to cost reduce it's machine.

Essentially, there was no colluding or one company annoyed at another, just one company put the puzzle together better than the other this time, which is great for the consumer, competition is a wonderfull thing.


No, you're making assumptions based on trying to add possible differences that COULD be there, but AREN'T there, to suit your argument.

All other things being equal (bus width, generation), GDDR5 is dominantly faster than DDR3. Saying that "Oh, DDR3 can be faster than GDDR5" is pointless, because hell, DDR1 at a hypothetical 20Ghz @ 1024-bit bus would blow everyone's brains out.

Hypotheticals that are so far from reality are basically worthless.

Fact : GDDR5 on PS4 has waaaaay more bandwidth for graphics throughput than the DDR3 setup on XB1. That's just a fact.

Even with the myriad of PC configurations, it's incredibly rare to ever see a same-gen card with DDR3 even come close to a same-gen card with GDDR5. Why is this? Simple, GDDR5 costs more, so they don't pair it with gimpy GPUs.

In the SPECIFIC case of the XB1 vs. PS4, you're dealing with the exact same gen APU and GCN architecture, yet one has a larger GPU and dramatically faster memory for video processing. End of story. No hypothetical will ever change that.

That's not marketing, that's just the chips, and how they fell, along with common sense.

The 7750 DDR3 vs. 7750 GDDR5 variants are the perfect case for it because you can compare an otherwise identical GPU core with both common types of memory. Apples to Apples, which is EXACTLY the point as guess what, the XB1 and PS4 BOTH HAVE 256-BIT MEMORY BUS! The 7750 DDR3 variant is about the fastest DDR3 GPU of all time as well.

And nobody sane would ever put DDR3 on a 512-bit bus for a GPU in a modern setup, as it's extremely expensive to make PCBs that support a bus that wide, and such a product would be too slow to justify the expense, hence : only GDDR5 is used for very wide buses now at the top tier of GPUs. DDR2 and DDR3 cards top out most commonly at 128-bit in most cases for PC GPUs, with many being as low as 64-Bit. The XB1 itself is a bit of an outlier with the 256-bit interface, which isn't really a coincidence when you consider that a standard dual-channel setup in a desktop APU (Llano, Richland, etc) is dual-channel 128-bit DDR3 (for 256-bit).



Pemalite said:
Arkaign said:

With an equal GPU generation, ddr3 is always slower than gddr5, by a fairly huge measure. Look up the benches of the 7750 ddr3 vs 7750 gddr5. The performance is off by 50%.




Generation has absolutely nothing to do with it, you fell for the marketing, hook line and sinker.

DDR3 1333mhz on a 512bit bus is as fast as GDDR5 1333mhz on a 256but bus.
DDR3 1600mhz on a 512bit bus would thus by extension be faster than GDDR5 1333mhz on a 256bit bus.

Obviously you double the clocks for the DDR3 and Quaddruple the clock for GDDR5, but DDR3 can both be cheaper and faster than GDDR5 under the right circumstance.

Thus it comes down to implementation rather than memory technology.

S.T.A.G.E. said:


MS thought their hardware was up to snuff until last year in February when sony revealed the PS4 specs. Thats when they ran franctic for the hills because everything Sony does scares them for some reason. They jumped on the clock speed and everything as quick as they could. It was all over the gaming news and all. Sony not only backed them into a corner technologically, it was almost like a real-life check-mate. Its definitely a hardware issue, but is not as much of one as they are making it. I am sure they are mad at AMD for giving Sony a superior graphics card. There were leaks that MS wasnt happy with AMD when Sony's specs were revealed. They expected AMD to give them the jump on Sony's plans but AMD kept quiet. MS will need this cloud to work. If it doesn't Sony proved it was all hardware.

Nah.
AMD would have offered both companies their entire I.P of graphics and central processing units for use in the consoles, it was upto Microsoft and Sony to decide what they wanted.

Essentially though because Microsoft wanted 8Gb of Ram from the out-set they settled with DDR3 as it's cheap and plentifull, but in order to make up for the performance deficit by going that route they had to make up for it with eSRAM.
The eSRAM takes up a ton of transisters on the die, which drives up chip complexity and costs, thus by extension something had to give, which just happened to be the GPU.
Microsoft could have went with DDR3 on a 512bit bus which would have provided enough bandwidth, but that would have driven up PCB complexity and forced the use of a more transister-hungry memory controller.


Sony however, were origionally going to go with 4Gb of Ram, because of costs.
However before the consoles launch, higher density memory became available which made the upgrade from 4Gb to 8Gb actually feasible, it was a gamble that paid off and Sony should be commended for it, they didn't have to throw a beefier memory controller at the console, they didn't need more memory modules on the motherboard and it didn't drive up PCB complexity.

Over time, the Xbox's DDR3 is going to continue to get more and more expensive as the PC market shifts over to DDR4 and it's derivatives, the Playstation 4's memory however should get cheaper due to scales of economies, with a fast selling console and low-end PC cards starting to use GDDR5 more and more, production will be scaled up so all those devices will benefit.

On the flip side, Microsoft can take advantage of newer fabrication process's to cost reduce it's machine.

Essentially, there was no colluding or one company annoyed at another, just one company put the puzzle together better than the other this time, which is great for the consumer, competition is a wonderfull thing.


Sony had the PS4 console development prepared well before Microsoft. Microsoft rushed to catch them to the launch. Sony knew ahead of time about the 8GB of ram because developers were talking about how much ram it would take to run games in the next gen. The most notable person a couple years ago who spoke about 8Gb of ram precisely was Cliff Bleszinski.

Microsoft doesn't really compete, they kind of just pay people to make things for them. I understand what you're saying though. Good read.



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Considering a load of people are still coming in here and suggesting that this game should be simple to run at 4k res because it's something which has appeared on XBLAs store before

The game looks like this... please consider that before calling it an indie game or so, Trials games are 2d... but they are still amazing, especially in the graphics department, especially now that it's in 60fps on both systems.



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Its great seeing comments with absolutely no addition to the conversation like these 2 ^^



Arkaign said:


No, you're making assumptions based on trying to add possible differences that COULD be there, but AREN'T there, to suit your argument.

All other things being equal (bus width, generation), GDDR5 is dominantly faster than DDR3. Saying that "Oh, DDR3 can be faster than GDDR5" is pointless, because hell, DDR1 at a hypothetical 20Ghz @ 1024-bit bus would blow everyone's brains out.

Hypotheticals that are so far from reality are basically worthless.

Fact : GDDR5 on PS4 has waaaaay more bandwidth for graphics throughput than the DDR3 setup on XB1. That's just a fact.

Even with the myriad of PC configurations, it's incredibly rare to ever see a same-gen card with DDR3 even come close to a same-gen card with GDDR5. Why is this? Simple, GDDR5 costs more, so they don't pair it with gimpy GPUs.

In the SPECIFIC case of the XB1 vs. PS4, you're dealing with the exact same gen APU and GCN architecture, yet one has a larger GPU and dramatically faster memory for video processing. End of story. No hypothetical will ever change that.

That's not marketing, that's just the chips, and how they fell, along with common sense.

The 7750 DDR3 vs. 7750 GDDR5 variants are the perfect case for it because you can compare an otherwise identical GPU core with both common types of memory. Apples to Apples, which is EXACTLY the point as guess what, the XB1 and PS4 BOTH HAVE 256-BIT MEMORY BUS! The 7750 DDR3 variant is about the fastest DDR3 GPU of all time as well.

And nobody sane would ever put DDR3 on a 512-bit bus for a GPU in a modern setup, as it's extremely expensive to make PCBs that support a bus that wide, and such a product would be too slow to justify the expense, hence : only GDDR5 is used for very wide buses now at the top tier of GPUs. DDR2 and DDR3 cards top out most commonly at 128-bit in most cases for PC GPUs, with many being as low as 64-Bit. The XB1 itself is a bit of an outlier with the 256-bit interface, which isn't really a coincidence when you consider that a standard dual-channel setup in a desktop APU (Llano, Richland, etc) is dual-channel 128-bit DDR3 (for 256-bit).


Stop taking what I have posted and twisting it out of context, I'm not a console heathen.
I said *can* and not, has, will, might, but *can*.

People automatically assume that GDDR5 is faster than DDR3, when it's not as black and white as that.
Problem these days is people grab a magical acroynm or a number and run with it to prove a point in an argument, again, it's not as black and white as that.

Fact of the matter is, Samsungs DDR3 3000mhz modules on a 512 bit bus *can* be faster than than the Playstation 4's GDDR5 on a 256bit bus.

S.T.A.G.E. said:


Sony had the PS4 console development prepared well before Microsoft. Microsoft rushed to catch them to the launch. Sony knew ahead of time about the 8GB of ram because developers were talking about how much ram it would take to run games in the next gen. The most notable person a couple years ago who spoke about 8Gb of ram precisely was Cliff Bleszinski.

Microsoft doesn't really compete, they kind of just pay people to make things for them. I understand what you're saying though. Good read.


We will just have to agree to disagree, we obviously both look at it differently. :P
But I will stand by my view as higher density memory modules simply wasn't available untill a mere several months before the PS4's launch. (Although, it would have been planned at the fabs long before that, so Sony could have had a heads-up.)

As for Microsoft paying other people to make to make things for them... Thats pretty much true for all hardware companies now with the exception for a select few now.

Essentially, most components like Ram, processors, graphics processors, drives, displays are all manufactured by a 3rd party, then assembled at a factory owned by someone like Foxconn, then shipped from China to all the destinations around the world.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--