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Forums - Nintendo - The truth about Nintendo

 

What do you think about Nintendo's attitude?

Awful, they should fail i... 189 14.04%
 
Pretty Bad, they should l... 385 28.60%
 
Not bad, they're just as anybody else 188 13.97%
 
Good, we need more like them 389 28.90%
 
Excellent, they don't need to change one bit 173 12.85%
 
Total:1,324
MDMAlliance said:
Zod95 said:
Viper1 said:
No doubt inspirations are there.  EVen fully motion capped at times.  Namco's motion capture of Marcelo Pereira for Eddy Gordo's character in Tekken 3 was jaw dropping.  But you can't 'learn' the martial art of capoeira simply through imitation of moves.  I'm almost shocked he even insinuated that you could.  But then I read some of the first post again and now I'm not shocked anymore.

I didn't say one could learn a martial art by playing videogames. I said one could learn a lot about martial arts by doing so.

I guess it's not the first time you misread things, then "enter in shock" and then it's facepalm moment.


@Bold: Several key words here:  COULD.  Which you also CAN learn things from playing pretty much any video game about SOMETHING.  The THING you would learn about Martial Arts from those fighting games is in no way practical and very limited.  

edit: The other key words are "a lot" (which simply is relative and vague) and your underlined word.

I agree, people can learn things from playing any realistic videogame, even if the application is limited. But would you say the same thing about a non-realistic game like Super Smash Bros?



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

Around the Network
Zod95 said:
MDMAlliance said:

Zod95 said:

I didn't say one could learn a martial art by playing videogames. I said one could learn a lot about martial arts by doing so.

I guess it's not the first time you misread things, then "enter in shock" and then it's facepalm moment.


@Bold: Several key words here:  COULD.  Which you also CAN learn things from playing pretty much any video game about SOMETHING.  The THING you would learn about Martial Arts from those fighting games is in no way practical and very limited.  

edit: The other key words are "a lot" (which simply is relative and vague) and your underlined word.

I agree, people can learn things from playing any realistic videogame, even if the application is limited. But would you say the same thing about a non-realistic game like Super Smash Bros?


Yes.  What makes you think it has to be realistic?  Smash Bros can teach you about simulated physics about just as much as a game like Tekken can teach you about Martial Arts.



sundin13 said:


Once again, you are using the word "evolved" terribly wrong.

Also...

Also? The sentence before was an argument by itself?

 

sundin13 said:

Also, Instruments were introduced at about the same time vocals were in video games ... As soon as technology allowed using recorded sounds, both vocals and instruments were utilized.

How can you make that statement?! Ok, I will give you the chance of showing evidence about that. Do you have it?

 

sundin13 said:

Prior to that it was all digital. Therefore, by using your own logic (which is HIGHLY flawed), instruments in music are equally evolved as lyrics, with both being more evolved than digital music (including digital lyrics). As soon as technology allowed using recorded sounds, both vocals and instruments were utilized.

What difference do you make between digital and non-digital?

 

sundin13 said:

I'm not going to bother delving into the 2D vs 3D evolution debate because it is basically a matter of semantics.

2D and 3D are a matter of semantics?! Are you feeling ok?

 

sundin13 said:

Also, once again, you aren't showing how this in any way villifies Nintendo or this should be seen as a negative. You can talk about effort but I think its fairly undeniable that Nintendo does and always has put a lot of effort into their soundtracks...

This doesn't vilify anyone and you can see it the way you want it. But facts are facts, that's what the OP is focused on. And the fact is that Nintendo games, in general, shifted to vocal music later than their competitors.

How do you show to any person that it's "fairly undeniable" that Nintendo puts a lot of effort into their soundtracks?



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

Viper1 said:
Zod95 said:
Viper1 said:
Zod95 said:

 And I did so because they comprise fighters with real techniques and real moves. You can actually learn a lot about martial arts playing those games (in a way that you can't on books or videos, because on videogames you do it yourself and you apply each move when you feel the need to do so).

On behalf of all of us that have studied a real martial art, we're going to have to ask you to stop.

I've also studied a real martial art, so speak for yourself.

 

Viper1 said:
No doubt inspirations are there.  EVen fully motion capped at times.  Namco's motion capture of Marcelo Pereira for Eddy Gordo's character in Tekken 3 was jaw dropping.  But you can't 'learn' the martial art of capoeira simply through imitation of moves.  I'm almost shocked he even insinuated that you could.  But then I read some of the first post again and now I'm not shocked anymore.

I didn't say one could learn a martial art by playing videogames. I said one could learn a lot about martial arts by doing so.

I guess it's not the first time you misread things, then "enter in shock" and then it's facepalm moment.

Oh..."about".  Perhaps you didn't read your own post.

You can actually learn a lot about martial arts playing those games....because on videogames you do it yourself and you apply each move when you feel the need to do so

That reads far more like you are saying you learn the art...not just learn about the art.  Learning about the art is history, purpose, associations of mind and body, etc...  Learning when to do the "moves" isn't learning about the art.   As someone who claims to have studied an art, you should know this.

I disagree. That is also learning about the art.

"To learn about" may refer to anything that is related to knowledge, regardless whether it can be applied or not.

"To learn" something (in this case a martial art) has a narrower meaning. It means that your mind and your body learn how to apply moves, perform katas and use the technique on fights.

And yet I would say you can learn on videogames something useful (to apply) about martial arts that you can't on books and maybe that would be even hard to learn practicing the martial art on real-life. Would this tiny piece of knowledge be enough to learn the martial art? Not at all. But it is already something on top of your already existing knowledge. I think the problem is that you took this as black & white and it isn't.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

seiya19 said:
Zod95 said:

Additionally, the OP doesn't say Nintendo games don't have vocal music nowadays but that they got it later than the competitors.

Just a note here: Killer Instinct had vocal music in 1994 on Arcade, and the SNES port in 1995 kept it. And in the context of 3rd parties on the platform, Tales of Symphonia Phantasia had a song on its opening. While not common, vocals were possible on the SNES. Star Ocean is also an example of this (using a special compression chip).

EDIT: Mixed the Tales...

But none of those are Nintendo games, are they?



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

Around the Network
forest-spirit said:
Zod95 said:
sundin13 said:

I feel like every time you use the word "evolution", the entire scientific community cringes.Its like when people say that humans are the "most evolved" animal which is complete BS from a scientific perspective.

You really cannot say anything about the music Nintendo uses in their games without being 100% opinionated. There is no facts backing up those opinions. "Sang music" is in no way more evolved than instrumental music. You have spoken about music a few times on here and used it as an example of how Nintendo hasn't evolved or adapted but I am still waiting for proof.

Additionally Nintendo does use vocals in a lot of their music (whether it is a choir or it is lyrical varies)

If this isn't enough proof for you, then I will not bother debating with you about this topic (once 3D is objectively more evolved than 2D):

"Regarding music, no, games don't need to (and they didn't) phase out instrumental music. They (can) have both. And of course vocal music is more evolved. Games began to have only instrumental music and then adopted vocal music when they became more evolved. Even the music itself began to be instrumental-only and then evolved too. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean vocal music is better. A perfect comparison would be 2D and 3D games. Games began to be 2D and then most of them evolved to 3D. Does this mean 2D games are worse? Of course not. But they are not as evolved, that's for sure."

Additionally, the OP doesn't say Nintendo games don't have vocal music nowadays but that they got it later than the competitors.


I don't understand the point you're trying make by claiming that vocal music is more evolved than instrumental. Does it make vocal music more complex? Superior? More expensive? Harder to make? More evolved or not I fail to see what it would prove.

Evolved: vocal music has instruments and voice, and it appeared later in both History of Music and History of Videogaming ; instrumental-only music, as the name itselft tells, has only instruments.

Complex: yes, it has everything instrumental-only music has and more.

Superior: no, that's already about tastes.

Harder to make: theoretically yes, meaning that the same music with the same instruments and the same conditions is harder to make when you add voice on top of that.

What it would prove: it doesn't prove anything besides the facts themselves (that most of Nintendo games shifted to vocal music later than their competitors), it only suggests that Nintendo wasn't willing to make the same effort and that it was forced by others rather than forcing them to evolve.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

Zod95 said:
sundin13 said:


Once again, you are using the word "evolved" terribly wrong.

Also...

Also? The sentence before was an argument by itself?

 

sundin13 said:

Also, Instruments were introduced at about the same time vocals were in video games ... As soon as technology allowed using recorded sounds, both vocals and instruments were utilized.

How can you make that statement?! Ok, I will give you the chance of showing evidence about that. Do you have it?

 

sundin13 said:

Prior to that it was all digital. Therefore, by using your own logic (which is HIGHLY flawed), instruments in music are equally evolved as lyrics, with both being more evolved than digital music (including digital lyrics). As soon as technology allowed using recorded sounds, both vocals and instruments were utilized.

What difference do you make between digital and non-digital?

 

sundin13 said:

I'm not going to bother delving into the 2D vs 3D evolution debate because it is basically a matter of semantics.

2D and 3D are a matter of semantics?! Are you feeling ok?

 

sundin13 said:

Also, once again, you aren't showing how this in any way villifies Nintendo or this should be seen as a negative. You can talk about effort but I think its fairly undeniable that Nintendo does and always has put a lot of effort into their soundtracks...

This doesn't vilify anyone and you can see it the way you want it. But facts are facts, that's what the OP is focused on. And the fact is that Nintendo games, in general, shifted to vocal music later than their competitors.

How do you show to any person that it's "fairly undeniable" that Nintendo puts a lot of effort into their soundtracks?

1. If you would like me to get into the actual definition of the word evolution and all the subtext included in it I will... do you honestly want to get into that debate (turns out I went into a bit of it anyways, oops)? For example, everything that is around today has been "evolving" for the same amount of time and as such, everything as it is today is equally evolved. Therefore, you cannot say that one thing today is more evolved than another thing today because that doesn't actually make any sense. If you start getting into metrics for calculating change, you are getting into some very fuzzy and subjective stuff and thus cannot be argued as fact...

2. Its logic...I have no way of looking into a chronological history of video game music and looking into all the games created by everybody, seeing what the first game that used music with recorded vocals is and comparing it to the first music that used recorded instruments. Think about it for a second, both recorded vocals and recorded instruments were not able to be played until the technology allowed it and the technology allowed both of those to occur at the same time (because both are recorded in the same way). See my below statement about digital music.

3. Digital music is very different than recorded instruments. For one, digital music is created by a computer vs instruments being recorded and played back. I think the difference here is pretty obvious. Additionally, changing from digitally created music to recorded music happened when the technology allowed it to happen.

4. For someone who frequently accuses people of misreading their quotes, you tend to do a lot of misreading. I said that the 2D vs 3D evolution debate is a matter of semantics, not that 2D vs 3D is a matter of semantics. This essentially means that the debate is centered around the definition of evolution, which by its actual definition, implies that everything that is around today is equally evolved. Applying that to video games, you would say that every 2D game that is around today is just as evolved as the 3D games that are around today. To say otherwise would be making a value judgement and as such cannot be said to be fact or truth or objective.

5.I would like some examples of the competors that used (non digitized) vocals in songs. I once again have no way of looking into every video game song ever made but on what basis are you making these claims? I can think of Nintendo games that used vocals in the GC era, though I haven't played many N64 games...

Also, Anybody who knows anything about music could tell you that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNqEfB6IYmE) was no simple feat, and definitely not objectively more "simple" than this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC0hV3dea9g).



Good grief. No, you won't learn much from playing Smash Bros. and neither will you from playing Soul Calibur, King of Fighters, Tekken and other fighting games. You might learn the names of a few moves and how a sword looks when you swing it but if you really want to learn about martial arts playing a video game is a waste of time. Get some good books on the subject instead, or watch TV. They are fighting games for crying out loud, not fighting simulators. They are made to entertain, not teach.
Let's also stop this nonsense about "realistic" fighters being superior. Games like Street Fighter, King of Fighters and Guilty Gear are highly regarded among fans of fighting games despite being cartoony and unrealistic.



Zod95 said:
forest-spirit said:
Zod95 said:
sundin13 said:

I feel like every time you use the word "evolution", the entire scientific community cringes.Its like when people say that humans are the "most evolved" animal which is complete BS from a scientific perspective.

You really cannot say anything about the music Nintendo uses in their games without being 100% opinionated. There is no facts backing up those opinions. "Sang music" is in no way more evolved than instrumental music. You have spoken about music a few times on here and used it as an example of how Nintendo hasn't evolved or adapted but I am still waiting for proof.

Additionally Nintendo does use vocals in a lot of their music (whether it is a choir or it is lyrical varies)

If this isn't enough proof for you, then I will not bother debating with you about this topic (once 3D is objectively more evolved than 2D):

"Regarding music, no, games don't need to (and they didn't) phase out instrumental music. They (can) have both. And of course vocal music is more evolved. Games began to have only instrumental music and then adopted vocal music when they became more evolved. Even the music itself began to be instrumental-only and then evolved too. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean vocal music is better. A perfect comparison would be 2D and 3D games. Games began to be 2D and then most of them evolved to 3D. Does this mean 2D games are worse? Of course not. But they are not as evolved, that's for sure."

Additionally, the OP doesn't say Nintendo games don't have vocal music nowadays but that they got it later than the competitors.


I don't understand the point you're trying make by claiming that vocal music is more evolved than instrumental. Does it make vocal music more complex? Superior? More expensive? Harder to make? More evolved or not I fail to see what it would prove.

Evolved: vocal music has instruments and voice, and it appeared later in both History of Music and History of Videogaming ; instrumental-only music, as the name itselft tells, has only instruments.

Complex: yes, it has everything instrumental-only music has and more.

Superior: no, that's already about tastes.

Harder to make: theoretically yes, meaning that the same music with the same instruments and the same conditions is harder to make when you add voice on top of that.

What it would prove: it doesn't prove anything besides the facts themselves (that most of Nintendo games shifted to vocal music later than their competitors), it only suggests that Nintendo wasn't willing to make the same effort and that it was forced by others rather than forcing them to evolve.

That would make MIDI more evolved in the aspect of history. Also, you can find plenty of music that is more complex  using only instruments than vocal and instrument. Unless you think rap and pop is more complex that classic works. Complexity is fairly subjective in itself



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Zod95 said:
forest-spirit said:


I don't understand the point you're trying make by claiming that vocal music is more evolved than instrumental. Does it make vocal music more complex? Superior? More expensive? Harder to make? More evolved or not I fail to see what it would prove.

Evolved: vocal music has instruments and voice, and it appeared later in both History of Music and History of Videogaming ; instrumental-only music, as the name itselft tells, has only instruments.

Complex: yes, it has everything instrumental-only music has and more.

Superior: no, that's already about tastes.

Harder to make: theoretically yes, meaning that the same music with the same instruments and the same conditions is harder to make when you add voice on top of that.

What it would prove: it doesn't prove anything besides the facts themselves (that most of Nintendo games shifted to vocal music later than their competitors), it only suggests that Nintendo wasn't willing to make the same effort and that it was forced by others rather than forcing them to evolve.


@Evolved:  Doesn't make sense to say "evolved."  Singing has existed before instruments of music.

@Complex:  Nope.  Just having vocals doesn't make it have as much as instrumental-only music at all.  The only way you can say that is if it's an instrumental version of the same song that originally has vocals.

@Harder to make:  That's just like saying it's harder to make a song with piano ensembles in it.  Because if the song is the same with all the same conditions and whatever, adding a piano to the mix would make it "harder."  Your logic is weird.

@What it would prove:  What you said is called "jumping to conclusions"  Nothing shows that anyone is forced to use vocals in music for video games.