Nintendo isn't doing terrible, but they do need to improve their tactics up.

What do you think about Nintendo's attitude? | |||
| Awful, they should fail i... | 189 | 14.04% | |
| Pretty Bad, they should l... | 385 | 28.60% | |
| Not bad, they're just as anybody else | 188 | 13.97% | |
| Good, we need more like them | 389 | 28.90% | |
| Excellent, they don't need to change one bit | 173 | 12.85% | |
| Total: | 1,324 | ||
Nintendo isn't doing terrible, but they do need to improve their tactics up.

Nintendo makes some great software, but they generally make crappy hardware. There are a few games for the wiiU that I would love to play, but I'm not willing to get a new system for it. I would honestly love if nintendo went 3rd party.
Excellent text Zod. I agree with it completely. Yoy are easily one of the nost knowledgeable useres on this web site.
| sundin13 said: I would like to ask you, how exactly is this Nintendo's fault and what should they have done about it. |
They have created a weaker console (previous gen tech) instead of merging the innovative Motion tech with a cutting-edge power system.
| sundin13 said: Lets go back a while to the GC era. Third parties and gamers both said to Nintendo "we wont support your system even if it is powerful enough". So Nintendo try a different strategy, they try to innovate and they try to make money off of the hardware. They suceed with flying colors, moreso than anybody could have expected. Now what? |
Nintendo has never created a friendly environment for developers. Look at the 2.2 section of the OP for example. Major developers can't experiment their AAA games on a deal with such an amateur and egocentric partner. Everything has a reason behind. Things don't happen randomly.
| sundin13 said: How can you blame Nintendo for any of this? If you want to blame someone, blame the 3rd parties who release the shovelware. nintendo does something that is arguable good for this industry and 3rd parties abuse it. Why throw all of the blame on Nintendo for the decisions other companies have made? You are making your point on why shovelware is bad (although I disagree with you) but not why this is Nintendos fault. |
Easy, I can blame Nintendo because I can compare them with the other console makers and see that the same business, the same environment, the same 3rd parties don't do on PlayStation or Xbox what they do on Nintendo consoles. The console philosophy is defined by the console maker, the console architecture is designed by them too, the first games (that will show how to use the console) are created by them too. The entire console ecosystem is initiated by them. 3rd parties just add on top of that. Are them to blame too? Sure. But comparing what is comparable: console maker against console maker, then Nintendo is to blame simply because they do and create and promote what Sony and Microsoft don't.
| sundin13 said: EDIT: Also, there are plenty of good, great or amazing games on the Wii. You are implying above that it is only shovelware on Wii when you say that with the PS2 "there is shovelware, but there is much more than that, you can find plenty of good games". |
No, I am implying that Wii is dominated by shovelware whereas the PS2 isn't. Both have great games, everybody knows that.
| sundin13 said: EDIT2: I would also like to add about your last point, where you say "Nintendo creates an environment that encourages shovelware", Sony and MS support an environment that encourages supremely high budget games that lead developers into bankruptcy. Neither are bad models but if you see all the evil in one, you have to see the evil in both...There is as much a possibility of making AAA games on Nintendo hardware as there is of making shovelware on Sony hardware. Once again, the blame is being misplaced and there is a clear bias... |
I've made a very good point but, again, I don't agree with you. The way I see it, Sony and Microsoft create an environment that encourages remarkable games, regardless they are high or low budget. And that is a very good thing. Which devs go bankrupt? Those that spent a lot making an unappealing product. That is rasing up the standards in the benefit of gamers. How could anyone see that as a bad thing?
On the other hand, when we see Nintendo lowering those very same standards...
Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 100M XOne: 70M WiiU: 25M
Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 100M XOne: 50M WiiU: 18M
Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 90M XOne: 40M WiiU: 15M Switch: 20M
Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 110M XOne: 50M WiiU: 14M Switch: 65M
| Zod95 said:
1. Harming gamers 1.1. What Nintendo does with your dollar It doesn’t take much time to search for graphics and tables on Google images about the profits of the big three and realize that Sony and Microsoft pick your dollar to spend on more games and consoles while Nintendo keeps much (if not most) of it. Just because Nintendo makes a profit doesn't mean they're trying to steal your money. They are a business, and saving their earnings is a completely normal practice. 1 dollar spent on Sony or Microsoft products means 1 dollar to feed hardware and software developers for the production of more and better games. Sony and Microsoft have other divisions besides gaming. In that way, their division can be subsidized with little consequence to the entire company's future. 1 dollar spent on Nintendo products means a very significant part of it out of the videogaming industry. It’s interesting to realize that the only 100% gaming corporation making consoles nowadays is also the only one taking money away from the gaming cycle. No, this actually makes complete sense why they would do this. It isn't even really true either, as it makes it seem like Nintendo doesn't spend money on making games or new experiences. 32B$, that is Nintendo’s “debt” towards gamers as of 2011. 1.2B$ is the Sony’s “debt” as of 2010 but now it must be nothing. With Microsoft, it’s the opposite: gamers have a “debt” of 6.8B$ as of 2011. These figures don't make much sense at all. There's no "debt" to anyone. Some of you may tell that companies are meant to make profits and thus it’s totally legitimate for Nintendo to make billions at the gamer’s expense. It's not at the gamer's expense. People choose to buy these products. It's not like sheep flocking to their masters who abuse them. That is true. However, you as a gamer have the power to choose. If there are companies that have been willing to give you as much as you give them, you can opt by them and make the market to operate on this logic. That is also fair. Again with this whole "debt" thing, it really doesn't make sense. What you're really looking at is the result of how much it costs to create the hardware, plus the fact that they subsidized their consoles (which Nintendo did not do). It isn't because they're trying to cheat us like you're making it out to be. It's because if they don't make a profit in their gaming division... pretty much their only division... they wouldn't be around anymore. It doesn't make sense to make this argument. You are right that gamers have the power to choose and there are plenty of Nintendo fans that HAVE been blindly accepting everything Nintendo does, but you're taking this way too far into the ridiculous.
1.2. How Nintendo has evolved along the time But, as gaming became more and more evolved, as digital experiences became more and more complex, and as genres were changing in both form and popularity, Nintendo wasn’t able to follow the market trends and the industry turns. They got stuck in the past, fearing change, more competitive segments that were emerging and refusing to leave behind the aging concepts that made them multi-millionaire. Except this isn't how it worked out. Nintendo isn't stuck with "the past" in terms of genres. Mario is their platformer game. F-Zero was their high-speed racer. Metroid was their more mature game. Pokemon was their RPG. Fire Emblem was their Strategy game. Zelda was their adventure game. There are more that Nintendo owns and all of these have evolved with the market and continued to sell well with probably the exception of F-Zero (in their respective markets). The top-notch designs became cartoonish, the unparalleled gameplay level became too basic, the content remained linear and the genre focus continued to be the same (platformers, RPG and little more). Except you're really only focusing on their most popular of franchises... AKA Mario & Pokemon (and the little more most likely is "Zelda"). They have more than that, and platformers, RPG and Adventure game cover A LOT of ground in terms of genres. Not only that, but you're just wrong with this. Twilight Princess =/= Cartoonish. Fire Emblem is rather mature, and so is Metroid which never was "cartoonish." Where are these "too basic" gameplay levels you're referring to? And "linear" is so often used as if it were really bad. It's not. It's necessary to tell a good narrative, and sometimes good for keeping a game accessible. As a result, the teenagers and adults that grew up with Nintendo were already too old to be pleased with the same experiences and kids became the main client of the “kindergarten” offers that Nintendo games had turned into. Also not the reason why this happened. This was more of a result of marketing than anything else. On the other hand, Nintendo got clinged as much as they could to the old formulas. One big example of this is the balloon-based games. When videogames were not evolved enough to have voice acting, real-time animations or character full-control, developers usually opted by game architectures based on text balloons that would tell what the characters were saying or would give options to progress in the game or perform some actions (like it happens in all handheld Pokémon games). From the 5th generation onwards, developers began to move out of this archaic concept. Tech is what was preventing them from evolving. Nintendo got clinged to the cheap architectures. Money is what was preventing them from evolving. This argument is filled to the brim with holes. Voice acting is not a sign of a game being more advanced. Real-time animations exist in Nintendo games, but are certainly not necessary as MANY 3rd party games still don't opt for. "Character full-control" I don't even know what that is. Nintendo is not "clinging" to these "architectures" and it ISN'T because of money either. They may be driven by profit, but that applies to any company. Of course we know Nintendo is not exempt from the whole concept. Platformers were still very popular but other genres emerged. Sports became very significant and Nintendo’s response was Mario Tennis, Golf, Strikers and Baseball, which were fun (Nintendo never stopped being competent in what they were committed to) but were too basic when compared to FIFA, PES, Virtua Tennis, MLB, NBA, NFL, etc. Nintendo also did Wii Sports, which did extremely well. I don't see what is considered "too basic" here. This seems just like a personal preference for you. A game having simpler mechanics does not make it a worse game. These games not only presented more complex and deeper gameplays but also attempted to be realistic in content (real players, real teams, real championships, real stadiums, etc.). With a tiny portion of such content, Nintendo Sports games could mostly appeal to kids but not to the majority, which moved to PlayStation. Such an overstatement that it isn't even true. Also, Wii Sports. The exact same thing happened with the Driving genre. Games like Need For Speed, Test Drive and Gran Turismo offered real cars, realistic environments and simulating gameplays when compared to Mario Kart and F-Zero. Once again, Nintendo avoided photo-realism, realistic gameplay modeling, car sounds and anything that couldn’t be done within the four walls of their studios or represented a major expense. Traditional-development / easy-business was their niche. It sounds like you just want Nintendo to spend more money on their games because you prefer "photo-realism." Photo-realism is NOT the same as "evolving." Same thing happened in the Fighting genre, where Nintendo came up with Super Smash Bros to compete with the complex and somehow realistic Tekken, Dead Or Alive and Soul Calibur. Recycling characters to an arcade experience shows the Nintendo’s commitment in regards to the Fighting genre. Same thing with the Strategy genre, where Pikmin was the only RTS to compete with the complex Command & Conquer, Age of Empires, Homeworld, Company of Heroes and the deep and simulating Civilization and Total War. All of these arguments fall apart once you find out why these games were even made. Smash Bros was meant to be an accessible fighter game that wasn't supposed to be like the other games you just listed. Read it up sometime, k? Platformers were now sharing protagonism with Action/Adventure games and the peeking Shooters. Nevertheless, Nintendo kept up with Mario and Donkey Kong while Zelda, Golden Eye and Metroid Prime were the only response for such a change. Again, with the exception of Golden Eye, Nintendo continued to be on the cartoonish/wonderland style that could solely rely on their talent to make games and nothing more. They were full of money but it was not to be spent like the others were doing. Even when they were drastically losing market share to PS1, the billions were to be kept in their pockets. I think the fact that you keep using the word "cartoonish" means that you don't know what you're talking about. It's like you think photo-realism is always harder to create than something that looks animated. Your jumps in logic are astounding. The Wii U just continued the Wii’s path, being 1 generation behind on core capabilities and relying on another gimmick (the gamepad). I don't think using the word "gimmick" is a good idea if you want to really be taken seriously. The PS4's controller is a 'gimmick' as is the XBox One's. Anything created to boost the appeal of a system is a gimmick. But this time Nintendo was not capable of catching the casual market. Most of the non-gamers that bought the Wii just moved out of the market as fast as they had moved in, searching for new ways of entertainment (smartphones, social networks, etc.). Others evolved and became more demanding (like the NES/SNES clients) and moved to PlayStation or Xbox. Only a tiny part upgraded their Wii to Wii U, and the sales show that. Except everything you said is speculation. You cannot actually claim to know this, just as I cannot claim that this is indeed false. Over the last 2 decades, Nintendo did everything to avoid massive money spending. Except that isn't even really true either. While Gran Turismo was modeling hundreds of real cars, TOCA was designing dozens of real tracks, Project Gotham was recreating several world cities and rFactor was modeling real car handlings, Nintendo was recycling the old same old Mario Kart. This comparison doesn't even make sense. Does a game HAVE to sample real cars to be a racer of note? No. Is Nintendo recycling the same old Mario Kart? No. It's like you haven't even seriously played any of the Mario Kart games if you think that. While Crytek, Epic and Polyphony were developing cutting-edge game engines, Nintendo was doing nothing special at all. Problem with this argument is that if Nintendo were to do this, they would almost surely lose money and end up using their resources where it's better spent. Do you see Sony and Microsoft going around trying to out-do the current game engines themselves? While Fuel, Just Cause, Test Drive Unlimited and Operation Flashpoint were building thousands of square kilometers, Nintendo was keeping up with the small levels they had ever done. While Sonic was hiring bands to create dozens of quality music tracks to its games, Nintendo continued to use instrumental-only soundtracks for Mario. Such a cherry-picked statement. You do realize that Nintendo has a lot of great music under its belt, right? You're acting as if Nintendo just "recycled" their music as well. While The Getaway, Uncharted, LA Noire and Heavy Rain were raising up the gaming standards to compete with movies or TrackMania, Crashday, LittleBigPlanet and ModNation Racers were creating powerful level editors and promoting the play-create-share concept, Nintendo was doing nothing for it. While World of Warcraft, APB and MAG were revolutionizing the online gaming experience or while GTA, Total War and Arma were designing highly deep simulating environments, Nintendo was claiming that violence and photo-realism were out of their landscape. But the truth is that Nintendo has never tried to engage into bold concepts that could require a lot of money with the risk of being massive flops (other developers did). While Nintendo could have tried to expand further, you've got it all wrong. It's about what they think is worth investing into. This is another thing that's normal for a healthy business to do. However, the thing is that Nintendo has plenty of times innovated the market with ideas. They ‘ve never done on Mario Kart what others did on ModNation Racers many years later. They’ve never done on Pokémon what others did on Spore many years later. What the heck does this even mean? The uncontrolled power of a game community fascinates most of developers but scares Nintendo. Their talent and creativity are only used to easily profit from gamers, who made them rich in the first place. Note that I’m not taking into account tastes when referring all those games earlier (like the Guinness book is not about the best people in the world). I’m just focusing on objective remarkable achievements of some games that could have only been done with effort/time/money. If the game X is beautiful or if the game Y is fun, that is already subjective (about tastes) and it is about talent (the only thing Nintendo games have relied on, despite their immense potential resources). Except what you've been stating aren't objective facts. You made a plethora of mistakes.
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I'll respond to more later.
| Zod95 said:
But how are Sony and Microsoft bankrupting those developers? That's what I would like to understand. Do they force them to produce AAA titles? Aren't PlayStation and Xbox consoles free platforms where anybody can produce any game, from indie to AAA? Nintendo has just confirmed with Wii U that they are not willing to evolve anymore. Game Cube was a console with a quite decent 3rd party support. Wii was very poor, AAA titles avoided it while puzzle, dance and fitness embraced the system. Wii U is even worse. Not only they aren't getting the same casual presence from 3rd parties but also the AAA titles are avoiding it even more than they did with the Wii (for example, I don't remember any dev saying that Wii wasn't capable of receiving PS2 ports, but I see that now with Wii U and PS3). Also, the way they deal with partners shows they continue to be amateurs. If things continue like this, I guess the next Nintendo console will only get first party support. Is that your idea of a viable future? On the other hand, we see Microsoft already well established, with unquestinable 3rd party support (they don't need to convince anyone anymore) and finally innovating in order to deliver something unique (after Kinect, which is only an enhanced Eye Toy, they are about to come with Ilumni Room). Sony is more than established, on both AAA and indie games, always seeking for innovation and dominating again. They are even challenging the borders of the console business by initiating PlayStation Now, which can really become the future of the videogaming business. In my opinion, Sony is the most prepared for the future. They don't fear it, they welcome it. |
They bankrupted them by making that abomination known as the PS3 with an 8-core processor that barely even worked. As I recall, the PS3 production standard was that up to 2 cores on a Cell processor was allowed to be dead on arrival leaving only 6 viable cores. They bankrupted them by turning everything into a graphics war. It wasn't a graphics war in the PS2 generation, now developers feel pressured to create an unrealistic development standard. If something goes wrong and even one of those triple A games doesn't sell, its bye bye developer (as in the case with Lair)
Its Sony who isn't evolving, All they do is refine what works with other companies and sell that. They haven't innovated in their entire history as a company, not in a way that really matters.
The reason third party developers is a question for another thread. Is it really Nintendo's fault if their legendary franchises overshadow third party games?
What kind of bullshit argument are you spouting now, Microsoft buys their third party exclusives, and they have the super hardcore players who love only FPS and Sports games and nothing else.
I wouldn't even call playstation Now an innovation.... It's doing the obvious, exactly what Sony always does. Microsoft at least tries, like it or not DRM is a solution to rising development costs of games. I'm amazed at how I predict this stuff years in advance and when it comes about, people are still shocked. David Jaffe GoW creator is making browser games, Irrational Games went Indie, they won't admit that it's because triple A games aren't profitable anymore, but that's the reason.
Zod95 said:
As naive and dishonest as the Guinness book. Look at what is said at the end of that section: "Note that I’m not taking into account tastes when referring all those games earlier (like the Guinness book is not about the best people in the world). I’m just focusing on objective remarkable achievements of some games that could have only been done with effort/time/money. If the game X is beautiful or if the game Y is fun, that is already subjective (about tastes)" |
The Guinness book relies on facts (i.e. fastest car speed officially recorded, most number of hotdogs eaten in X minutes). Most importanly, it limits itself to facts, it doesn't try to link facts with each others, it doesn't try to explain reality, it stops before that. You comparaison with the Guinness book doesn't make sense since you are trying to explain reality.
And using the quantitative measure of ''Effort/time/money'' to qualitatively analyse games is misleading since the quality of a particular game is not determined by the amount of ''Effort/time/money'' put into it, notwithstanding you even knowing that amount.
I can't believe you seriously think you are being objective, like some have said, it must be a joke thread.
| Anfebious said: I will do a meaningful contribution as my TL;DR version is far from a good post. There is clearly a strong bias in your words and while some things in your OP are true (the 2nd Part and some of the 3rd), there are things that are already in the past (the 2nd Part) and things that are just your opinion (like the 1st part where you talk about the "debt" that Nintendo owes us gamers, it's just plain silly and purely opinionated). I fail to see how we could take this whole thread as "The truth about Nintendo" when the bias is so strong. But I must tip my hat to you as you wrote just as much as johnlucas would have... and that's no an easy feat. |
You talk many times about bias and the only thing you point out is a word that I carefully put in quotation marks to not mean real debt but only a way to tell that we as gamers have already given more to Nintendo than what they gave us. That is not bias. Any more complaint?
Nevertheless, I must thank you for your kind words at the end, although I don't care about quantity, just quality.
Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 100M XOne: 70M WiiU: 25M
Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 100M XOne: 50M WiiU: 18M
Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 90M XOne: 40M WiiU: 15M Switch: 20M
Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 110M XOne: 50M WiiU: 14M Switch: 65M
Zod95 said:
They have created a weaker console (previous gen tech) instead of merging the innovative Motion tech with a cutting-edge power system.
Nintendo has never created a friendly environment for developers. Look at the 2.2 section of the OP for example. Major developers can't experiment their AAA games on a deal with such an amateur and egocentric partner. Everything has a reason behind. Things don't happen randomly.
Easy, I can blame Nintendo because I can compare them with the other console makers and see that the same business, the same environment, the same 3rd parties don't do on PlayStation or Xbox what they do on Nintendo consoles. The console philosophy is defined by the console maker, the console architecture is designed by them too, the first games (that will show how to use the console) are created by them too. The entire console ecosystem is initiated by them. 3rd parties just add on top of that. Are them to blame too? Sure. But comparing what is comparable: console maker against console maker, then Nintendo is to blame simply because they do and create and promote what Sony and Microsoft don't.
No, I am implying that Wii is dominated by shovelware whereas the PS2 isn't. Both have great games, everybody knows that.
I've made a very good point but, again, I don't agree with you. The way I see it, Sony and Microsoft create an environment that encourages remarkable games, regardless they are high or low budget. And that is a very good thing. Which devs go bankrupt? Those that spent a lot making an unappealing product. That is rasing up the standards in the benefit of gamers. How could anyone see that as a bad thing? On the other hand, when we see Nintendo lowering those very same standards... |
1. As I have already said, there is nothing wrong with a weaker console. I have made my point multiple times but you continue to assert that a weaker console is inherently bad and yet you champion the PS2 as if it some god amongst peasants. When Nintendo does it they are screwing third parties but when Sony does it they are heralded as the savior of yore! Er, sorry, got a little carried away, but c'mon man, look at your bias!
2. 2.2 once again asserts that weaker consoles are inherently EVIL. Also you seem to have missed the fact that Nintendo are actually doing quite brilliantly with indies right about now. So yeah, Nintendo has created a friendly ecosystem for developers on the Wii U.
3. You didn't really say much in this point...You blame Nintendo for the shovelware saying that they set the example but if that was true, we would have seen more great, creative and intuitive games that followed Nintendo's example on the Wii and Wii U...You give Nintendo too much blame for things that aren't really their fault...
4. "Dominated" is a funny word when the general rule is that "95% of everything is crap". People just see the shovelware more on the Wii...why? I dunno, and I don't really care. That really isn't Nintendo's fault because when I turn my head and look at my Wii games, I see some of my favorite games of all time, many of which were made by Nintendo.
5. You really cap this one off with a coup de grace of ridiculous @.@
Yes, how can anyone see that the fact that budgets have skyrocketed leading to one mistake being all it takes to wipe an otherwise wonderful developer out? How could anyone see an atmosphere that discourages experimentation by making it so new IPs are too much of a risk while doing the same thing as everyone else is almost a much more likely way to profit. Look up any article about how destructive the AAA market is and educate yourself before preaching some "truth" that is about as objective as the laymen's opinions...
Look at the fact that Nintendo repeatedly makes some of the most highly rated games before saying they are "lowering standards"...You seem to be fixated on your opinion that weaker consoles (when Nintendo makes them) are evil but there is no truth to that. You want to hate on shovelware, hate the people making it.
Nobody expected the Wii to take off like it did and Nintendo was just doing what they had to to keep themselves alive. The market cannot support three identacle console manufacturers. Even Sony has said that Nintendo is good for the industry and Nintendo brings a lot of new consumers in and the "shovelware" games on every console helps to fund bigger, more ambitious projects. You need to see the whole picture. The market without Nintendo is not a market I would like to see and I quite frankly find it appalling that anyone would wish for it...
Also, check out my other post on last page (Page 11) if you will...I know you are a busy man making all these ridiculous assertions but I'd like to see you get around to it eventually
EDIT: @ Below post: Oh no! A business is greedy! Oh wait...thats pretty much every business ever. Like I said, most of those points haven't been relevant for a long time so why should I care about them now? Especially when the guys who ran the company back then aren't around anymore (RIP Yamauchi). The market was a very different place back then too...those points just aren't relevant.
EDIT2: @ Region Lock: Region lock is largely a practice employed because of third parties and licensing rights...just sayin' that you keep yelling about how Nintendo is terrible to third parties and then you attack region lock...seems kinda silly to me. Here is a link, educate yourself: http://aussie-gamer.com/article/why-region-locking-is-good-for-video-games/
sundin13 said:
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But the point is that the past affects the present. Many of Nintendo's greedy actions from the past still have consequences nowadays. And in many others Nintendo hasn't even showed any willingness to change.
Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 100M XOne: 70M WiiU: 25M
Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 100M XOne: 50M WiiU: 18M
Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 90M XOne: 40M WiiU: 15M Switch: 20M
Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020: PS4: 110M XOne: 50M WiiU: 14M Switch: 65M